next gen consoles to increase importance of sm 3/opengl?

[Mendel]

Both the xbox 2 and playstation 3 will support shader model 3 , (edit: or similar features, whatever the api)


Does this mean, while games are ported from one console to the other and to the pc and vice versa, that developers will be concentrating their efforts to support pixel and vertex shader 3 rendering and will this greatly reduce the importance of shader model 2 and its derivatives in development? Also keep in mind the previous generation consoles, like xbox with its shader 1.? support will probably be a factor here too.

With both Ati and Nvidia soon sporting their 2nd generation sm3 chips to the entire range of pc cards (r520 can hardly be called 1st gen sm3 chip imo) as well as consoles, how will this affect things? Will developers keep developing for all levels of shaders, including 1.1, 2.0, 2.0+, 2.0b and 3 or will they be forced to choose between just a few of those options, 2.0 and 3, 2.0b and 3, maybe even just 1.1 and 3 like with Splinter cell... (shader versions for xbox 1 and 2)

What will happen betweeh regular sm2 and 2.0b? Will both be supported, will 2.0 be considered too primitive or will the 2.0b's too small install base render it useless?

Or maybe you still think shader model 3 will be the one that proves out to be just a stop gap measure, while the true next step will come along with Windows longhorn, in which case you probably also think next gen consoles will either fail or you just aren't interested in games ported from consoles (please clarify your vision)

I was about to make this a poll, but theres so many things I think I will just post this as discussion.

 

[991060]

next gen consoles will use high level shading language(HLSL and GLSL) mostly, if not exclussively. And many shaders can be compiled to multiple targets, that means developers may organize their code bases according to different effects, rather than different shader models.

 

[Mendel]

and in case a specific effect requires at least a certain level of shading hardware, will the developers rework a similar shader for every level of lesser hardware? For example, an xbox 2 game might heavily use dynamic branching to achieve certain level of detail. How will this be worked to perform with shader model 2 on pc version?

 

[_xxx_]

All versions of everything could be considered a stopgap, since everything evolves.

I don't think that companies are ready to invest much time and effort into something that unproductive like writing 3-4 paths anymore. If at all, I'd say there will be two paths (kinda high and low end, like SC3 did).

 

[PeterAce]

Well Reverend has already commented on this topic a while ago (when he alluded to SS:CT 'blind spot' to PS 2.0 - I.E only 1.1 and 3.0 shader models).

this is not an isolated incidence -- the way things has been going since the TWIMTBP campaign got started should tell us that this can be (and already is, going by this case alone) a very likely scenario industry-wide.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=315952#315952

 

[Mendel]

So I've been informed that playstation 3 uses primarily opengl ES and therefore my talks of it supporting shader model 3 prove to be a bit funny Though I must say for my defence that I meant it from the level of features point of view anyways.

That said, this might be ionteresting from another point of view. Maybe now opengl will get more important in pc games too, maybe Ati will have to speed up its gl driver department once again

 

[Sage]

no fvcking way!? PS3 = OpenGL ES!? wow, maybe Sony is actually doing something good for the industry finally!

 

[KimB]

Well, the core that nVidia is developing for Sony is supposed to be next-generation in design, so it's almost certainly a fair bit beyond SM3-level hardware. X-Box 2 hardware is also supposed to be essentially WGF hardware (i.e. similar to the specs/capabilities expected for the next big version of DirectX).

The R520 should be technologically inferior to both. But then again, it should be released sooner, too. Similarly, nVidia will probably not be releasing anything hugely different from their current NV4x core until around the time the next version of Windows is released (when's that supposed to be now? Next year?).

 

[Dave Baumann]

So I've been informed that playstation 3 uses primarily opengl ES and therefore my talks of it supporting shader model 3 prove to be a bit funny

Being OpenGL it'll still have an extension mechanism and NVIDIA are said to be providing Cg for the HLSL tool, so there are probably just going NV vertex and fragment extensions tailored to the part.

 

[CMAN]

I wonder if using CG for the PS3 will make it gain more acceptance in the PC market. I would assume a developer would choose either CG or the Microsoft HDSL, and discourage using both.

 

[Ostsol]

Any acceptance that Cg gains will be a result of it taking less work to use the existing Cg shaders when porting to and from the console than to convert the shaders to GLSL or DirectX's HLSL. It'll be a matter of time and money rather than utility.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Xbox 2's ATI VPU should be Shader Model 3 ++ or +++

PS3's Nvidia GPU (or Nvidia-Sony GPU) should be Shader Model 4 if not Model 3 ++++

 

[Dave Baumann]

That was one of the most utterly meaningless posts I've seen for a while!

 

[KimB]

That was one of the most utterly meaningless posts I've seen for a while!

Well, I don't know. Seems like he's trying to suggest that the PS3's GPU will have more advanced tech than the X-Box 2. From the rumors so far, I don't know if you could really say that. I think it's more likely that the two will be sufficiently different on features that they cannot be directly compared.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I know what he was trying to say and the latter portion of your post says why its meaningless. If the parts are not "SM4.0 capable" then they will probably fall between SM3.0 and SM4.0 and there are likely to be relatively arbitary differences depending on the influences on the IHV designing it (i.e. architectural goals, contract influences, etc., etc.).

 

[991060]

and in case a specific effect requires at least a certain level of shading hardware, will the developers rework a similar shader for every level of lesser hardware? For example, an xbox 2 game might heavily use dynamic branching to achieve certain level of detail. How will this be worked to perform with shader model 2 on pc version?

Rewriting shaders in high level language is much easier than doing it in ASM. So, if the effects can be implemented efficiently in different ways on different HWs, I think developers are willing to write diifferent code paths. After all, such kind of effects are still rare in reality.

 

[kemosabe]

That was one of the most utterly meaningless posts I've seen for a while!

Ummm, how's this for meaningless?

 

[rwolf]

Well, the core that nVidia is developing for Sony is supposed to be next-generation in design, so it's almost certainly a fair bit beyond SM3-level hardware. X-Box 2 hardware is also supposed to be essentially WGF hardware (i.e. similar to the specs/capabilities expected for the next big version of DirectX).

The R520 should be technologically inferior to both.

Not always true. R300 vs FX5800 comes to mind. More features or more advanced designs don't always pan out.

 

[AlNom]

Ummm, how's this for meaningless?

Exposed!

 

[Hellbinder]

WOW..

Like Dave looks totally different than i had him pictured in my head. Which is usually the case when you finally see what various people you have been reading on the internet for a long time are "revealed".

I had him pictured kind of like the tall Dark hair'd guy in a power Suit and Tie all business like and such.