my 9000 Pro review

[Joe DeFuria]

Agreed. But, again, I doubt any of the above goes through the head of your average consumer.

You misunderstood me a little.

I am not trying to say that any of that goes through the head of the consumer. (Is buying at a price this low 'hurting' this company?) I agree that it doesn't go through consumer's mind.

My point about "indirectly the consumer cares," is that companies that sell products that do not command sustainable profit margins (or need to be sold for a loss), puts that company in trouble. The consumer usually DOESN'T think about this until that company goes out of business. When that happens, the consumer is "hurt" because there is one less competitor (or more directly, if that company no longer provides support for their products.)

Honestly, I think it's a case of company fans not wanting to see the Radeon 9000 products compared to a GF4 Ti4200, period.

I agree there too.

My main point is about the "achievement" that the 9000 product is, and deserves recognition for. The simplest way to explain it is, that the 9000 is to be recognized for the performance & feature / COST ratio.

We will see the 9000s selling for a LOT longer period of time than the 4200s, because the 4200s will not be economically viable at prices approaching 9000's selling point. (The same reason why the Radeon 8500 is being phased out...)

To be clear, I am NOT staying that the 9000 shouldn't be compared with the 4200. The 9000 should be compared against any product that sells in a relatively close price range. This tends to include the GeForce4 MX, Radeon 7xxx and 8xxx boards, as well as the GeForce4 4200.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Ok John again I ask you to answer this question, that everyone is avoiding like the plague....what is the Geforce MX 460 competing with using your same logic...

I would also like to point out that online sales amount for little in the retail chain..the average consumer doesn't even know what price watch is..so the MRSP is a more accurate statement...the technical Savy know how shop, that doesn't mean the entire world does....

The 9000 is priced much cheaper (as much as $80) that a Ti4200...they are not in the same class.

 

[Neeyik]

Some rough prices over here in the UK (taken from a couple of places though):

ATI Radeon 8500 64MB = £152
Gigabyte Radeon 8500 64MB = £148
ATI Radeon 9000 64MB = £85
Sapphire Radeon 9000 64MB = £76

Leadtek GF4 Ti4200 64MB = £122
Asus GF4 Ti4200 128MB = £142
Gainward GF4 MX420 64MB = £72
Leadtek GF4 MX440 64MB = £76

Over here, I don't think there is any question as to what card the 9000 is fighting sale space against...and it certainly isn't the 4200.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Yes Simillar here in Canada...

http://www.oxycom.com/canada/final.asp?8249272xxqfg418=78908826&RECNO=61688

Radeon 9000 Pro $196


http://www.oxycom.com/canada/final.asp?8249272xxqfg418=78908826&RECNO=32651

Geforce MX 440 $190..and thats a 440 not a 460

http://www.oxycom.com/canada/final.asp?8249272xxqfg418=78908826&RECNO=64056

Geforce 4 4200 $333

 

[John Reynolds]

Thanks for clarification, Joe. I think we agree on all the main points.

Ok John again I ask you to answer this question, that everyone is avoiding like the plague....what is the Geforce NX 460 competing with using your same logic...

I would also like to point out that online sales amount for little in the retail chain..the average consumer doesn't even know what price watch is..so the MRSP is a more accurate statement...the technical Savy know how shop, that doesn't mean the entire world does....

The 9000 is priced much cheaper (as much as $80) that a Ti4200...they are not in the same class.

I just did a Pricewatch search and the cheapest 9000 Pro was the Atlantis for $85 USD. The cheapest 4200 was the 64MB eVGA model for $125 USD. Hmm, damn near 50% more. My Best Buy Sunday ad shows a ATi 9000 Pro going for $150 USD ($20 mail-in, not instant, rebate lowers that to $130 this week) while the cheapest 4200 they carry is the 64MB board from PNY, which costs $200 (the VisionTek 4200 is $230). Again, while the actual dollar amount isn't all that significant, the percentage difference is. On the other hand, the MX 420 and 440s range from $100 to $130 at Best Buy.

OK, having done this little bit of searching I do agree that the 4200 scores shouldn't be listed, at least with current prices. I still feel that price is a more important determining factor than market placement , but in this case there's too much of a price difference. I wonder if reviewers who compare the 9000s to 4200s would feel it fair to compare a 128MB 8500 to a 64MB MX 460?

 

[Galilee]

Then I guess it depends on where you buy it.

About GF4-MX, well I think it's only good for OEM-computers. No point in buing one if you are building or upgrading.

 

[Tahir2]

I could have picked up a Radeon 8500LE 128MB for £89

Instead I went for the GF4 Ti4200 from Gainward, boxed (not OEM) for £110.

This was at a computer fair and I saw no Radeon 9000 Pro's at this particuar one.. a few days earlier I saw the Radeon 9000 Pro 64MB selling for £97.50.

I won't say that I regret buying the GF4 Ti4200 as it is indeed faster and overclocks to about Ti 4400 levels - but I miss my old Radeon 8500LE 64MB.

Information from a regular consumer.

Oh and the sales dude (a 16 year old kid in fact!) recommended me the Radeon 8500LE 128MB version rather than the GF4 Ti4200. But I think that was because he thought I would have some money left over to buy some SDRAM he was trying to push my way.. LOL

Edit: great review by the way Ben Sun - I loved the new format, especially the benchmark page.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Then I guess it depends on where you buy it.

About GF4-MX, well I think it's only good for OEM-computers. No point in buing one if you are building or upgrading.

????
You can buy it everywhere...its the value priced card from Nvidia, the 9000 is the value priced card from ATI..offers alot more in features for the same money and its being compared to 4 months ago the peformance leader high end cards ...

 

[jb]

ben,

liked the review. That page fading..it was neat on the fist page...but grew old after awhile...maybe just save it for the first and/or last page?

 

[John Reynolds]

ben,

liked the review. That page fading..it was neat on the fist page...but grew old after awhile...maybe just save it for the first and/or last page?

Agreed. Glue said it best: function over aesthetics.

 

[Galilee]

Then I guess it depends on where you buy it.

About GF4-MX, well I think it's only good for OEM-computers. No point in buing one if you are building or upgrading.

????
You can buy it everywhere...its the value priced card from Nvidia, the 9000 is the value priced card from ATI..offers alot more in features for the same money and its being compared to 4 months ago the peformance leader high end cards ...

I was talking about price. As I said: In Norway the Ti4200 doesnt cost a lot more than the R9000PRO. Somewhat more than plain 9000.

 

[tamattack]

Here in Canada, the average Ti4200 retails for ~CAD$275-300 whereas the average 9000Pro retails for ~CAD$200-215, which is a substantial price difference.

Granted, that's comparing retail Ti4200 128MB vs. retail 9000Pro 64MB... But the average consumer doesn't see the memory difference, they see the price difference.

More importantly to the average consumer looking for a new PC at the local mom-and-pop computer store, OEM versions of the 9000Pro are widely available at ~CAD$150 whereas OEM Ti4200s are practically non-existant.

So an average Joe Bob on the street here will see a price of CAD$150 for the 9000Pro OEM vs. CAD$300 for the Ti4200... That's 2x the price.

Not exactly a truly fair comparison, but that's the way average Joe sees it.

 

[mboeller]

Whats a Geforce 4 MX selling for in Germany ? As I hope you would use that same arguement there....
Just to be clear, I don't care either..just laugh when I read people compare budget cards to high end cards...I have not seen any reviews comparing a 9000 to a MX...its like that money making line of cards doesn't even exist

Besides this one..hooray

You asked for it here they come :

prices without shipping & handling :

GF4 MX440 : Euro 80,-
GF4 MX460 : Euro 114,-
GF4 Ti4200 : Euro 143,-

ATi 8500LE : Euro 110,-
ATi 8500 : Euro 140,-
ATi 9000 : Euro 90,-
ATi 9000Pro : Euro 129,-


So you see here in germany the 9000Pro competes directly with the Ti4200. So everyone will choose the Ti4200 due to the higher performance.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

So you see here in germany the 9000Pro competes directly with the Ti4200. So everyone will choose the Ti4200 due to the higher performance.

Hmmm....

The 9000Pro is 15 Euro more than the MX 460, and 14 Euro less than the 4200....and that makes the 9000 Pro "directly" competing with the 4200, moreso than the MX 460?

I guess that one extra Euro makes all the difference.

Of course, the "vanilla" 9000 obviously competes with the low-end MX series.

 

[mboeller]

So you see here in germany the 9000Pro competes directly with the Ti4200. So everyone will choose the Ti4200 due to the higher performance.

Hmmm....

The 9000Pro is 15 Euro more than the MX 460, and 14 Euro less than the 4200....and that makes the 9000 Pro "directly" competing with the 4200, moreso than the MX 460?

I guess that one extra Euro makes all the difference.

Of course, the "vanilla" 9000 obviously competes with the low-end MX series.

For You the MX460 is an real card? This stupid marketing mistake of Nvidia should be put off the shelves immediately! So the MX460 does not count for me. As you see from the price comparison this "puffed up" GF2 competes (in price) directly with the Ti4200 and the 9000Pro. What a mess. The MX440 can compete with price, but the MX460 is far to expensive and has an lack-luster feature set (expecially when you take the price into account)

So enough of this rant. But I hope you see how high the MX460 is in my account

As it seems even Nvidia see's it this way, cause the MX460 seems to be missing from the new drivers.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

For You the MX460 is an real card?

Well, you did list it, did you not?

The failure of MX460 to materialize in any significance was not nVidia's "marketing mistake" so much as it was the consequence of The Radeon 8500.

nVidia was not planning on the 4200 at all, and wanted to sell the MX460 in the ti-4200 price points. Competition (Radeon 8500) wouldn't allow that though.

Rather than lose increadible market share to ATI in the $150-$200 market by only having the MX 460 compete with the 8500, nVidia chose to take a profit margin hit, and released the 4200.

 

[ram]

Doesn't work in Opera. Due to time constraints, I focussed on Mozilla and Internet Explorer. That covers 98% of all readers at PCRave according to the site stats. If I have time, I will do research and see if I can get Opera to work correctly.

Opera is detected as Internet Explorer by default, so you can't tell how many of your site users use Opera and how many use IE.

 

[MikeC]

My idea is that the page has to fit 640x480 screens and it does that.

Joe, you might want to consider using 800x600. Based on a free stats service, the top 8 resolutions used while visiting nV News during 2002 were:

1024x768 - 44%
1280x1024 - 23%
1152x864 - 10%
800x600 - 9%
1600x1200 - 7%
1280x960 - 3%
1400x1050 - 0.71%
640x480 - 0.39%

 

[pascal]

Unfortunatelly the GF4MX will sell a lot worldwide

In Brazil you can find the GF4MX for US$240.00 . It is more expensive than a GF3Ti200 and people buy it because it is a GF4

The other day I was in a computer store and one man called his son using a celular: "- Hi soon, what is the name of the computer you want?"

Then he says to the salesman "my son wants a Pentium computer"

Now you can imagine what 3D card he will buy "and he wants a GF4 too"

Unfortunatelly computer consumers dont know much more than the names (more or less it) of what they are buying.

 

[Doomtrooper]

You don't need to tell me about 'Pentium'...When I had my business I had some Demo Machines...

1) Amd Athlon Slot A 600
2) Intel Pentium 3 600

I had the usual benchmarks set up, UT and Quake 2 and some other office suites like Sandra..

Even though the Athlon beat the P3 600 by a significant margin and was alot cheaper, people would ask "is it a pentium ??".."I want a Pentium"..

So I had some printouts of reviews and design wins the Athlon got and told them to read that and think it over...in the end 80% came back and said..I want a 'pentium'...never heard of this AMD.

A year later alot them came back to me as they got more familiar and did some reading, especially with the T-bird release and kicked themself in the ass