Motorstorm 3 dev: "Racing genre is stuck in a rut"

IMHO, it's more interesting than running in loops. ^_^

Well, running in loops vs. rollercoaster SP ride of CoD and the likes, almost the same. ;)


Only if EA could successfully revive the old NFS formula. And TDU2 (and the first) looks interesting with their "test drive high life" approach.
 
Hm, the problem in my case is that racing games typically need a considerable amount of time:

Forza, GT, Dirt, ... are all phantastic driving games if you ask me, and back in my school days (i.e. unlimited time) I would have played them night and day!! But now, it just takes to much time to advance in these games, you need hours of hours of "grinding" to get the good cars and the good upgrades - which at the end provide ultimate fun!

If we switch to arcade racers, all what counts is cool action: my favorite game I can remember in this genre is NFS Underground - was sensational and changed my racing game preference!

Motorstorm series provide ultimate action and fun for me too, although you need here again considerable time to learn all the tracks and vehicles as the AI in this game is brutal in higher levels!!

Blur, is a great game - it is a shame that it does not sell so well, but at least I could convince my buddy to buy it as well so that we can play together!!

I think that Evolution does the right thing with MS3: remember that they state that you play as 3 different characters at different times during the festival, bringing the "story" together at the end! Combine this with the tremendous action MS series is known for...it is simple my most wanted title at the moment!
 
Well, running in loops vs. rollercoaster SP ride of CoD and the likes, almost the same. ;)

It was not meant to be a joke. If they want to find out why people like me don't buy racing games. That's how I feel exactly.

FPS provides a lot more variety in story, exploration and weapons.
I don't see it like a rollercoaster at all. TPS also helps to keep the shooter genre fresh.
 
Wipeout HD offered lots of awesome variety as well. Unfortunately it is one of those gems few can understand
 
Wipeout HD offered lots of awesome variety as well. Unfortunately it is one of those gems few can understand

I think its the grinding nature of the racing games, you have to redo over and over again and only thing you get in reward is a bit faster times etc. In FPS you at least get forward :)
Although the Motorstorms tried with opening new tracks/races as you win races etc, but still.
 
Wipeout HD offered lots of awesome variety as well. Unfortunately it is one of those gems few can understand
Games like that are my favourite.

Any game that reminds me of F-Zero these days, running smooth, is a must for me. Plus they require actual skill.
 
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Wipeout HD offered lots of awesome variety as well. Unfortunately it is one of those gems few can understand

It's particularly Fury that is the better game in that sense, having a bigger variety in gameplay styles so that you can play a lot more according to your own preference. Since I'm a bit bored with the racing style in Wipeout HD (I would have liked a version or game mode that was accelleration-pad less, and one that made better use of sixaxis or in the future maybe Move - right now there is so much assist on d-pad, and the accelleration pad system makes the gameplay so comparatively simple, it's just not suitable to more subtle controls) I'm a big fan of zone, eliminator, and detonator in particular and in Fury I can play primarily those and still progress. I hate the tournaments.

For Motorstorm they should add challenges, mini and party game modes that showcase the physics. Give me a Motostrom version of Angry Birds, maybe. ;)
 
Alright, I will check out Wipeout more. It comes with the PS+ subscription. I put it aside because the 3D demo made it look like a regular racer.

The other car game is Twisted Metal. Let's see how gamers react to it.
 
Both my wife and I are definitely racing fans though I feel that few recent racing games meet our wants. Neither of us much like true sims (the GT series is akin to using spreadsheet IMHO) and I can't really get into the cart styles racers like Motorstorm, especially all the 90's "super radical pump you up dayglo spandex extreme" trappings. Maybe in another 10 years when that counts as kitsch.

=)

My fave racers of last gen were WRC and Test Drive Unlimited. Both offered huge tracks and / or environments and focused on the environmental experience more than on memorizing short circuits. Both also worked reasonably well in a group environment as they were fun games to watch (like riding through Mexico in Red Dead Redemption). Racing games are for me anyway at least partially about escape, going for a drive somewhere scenic (even if it is at break neck speed).

This gen I feel that the first Dirt was decent (in the second something seems to have happened to the handling). NFS Shift would have been really good if they could have eliminated or greatly minimized the load times. The audio and cockpit view are both awesome. The NFS Shift devs sadly missed a chance expanding on the one figure 8 race which is surprisingly fun (think of the first time you played Destruction Derby back in the day on your PC).

However one thing that has hurt the NFS series especially but other racers suffer this too is that the farther you progress through the games, the longer the races get. Instead of having more fun as you get better cars, it becomes a grind. It has been a long time since I have completed a racing game because the time investment simply becomes too crazy (especially as the skill required to beat the races increases).

I do have huge hopes for Test Drive Unlimited 2. The first iteration which I played on the PS2 is my favourite racing game of all time (above the first NFS Hot Pursuit) and I can't wait until September to play a current gen version on my PS3. Real world GPS data + racing game is candy.

I think part of why driving around in GTA3* era games was so much fun was the fact your vehicle was not always some priceless concept car. It's a lot easier to relate to burning rubber down a back alley in some gnarly beater than doing so in a weird million dollar exotic you have never even seen IRL. I also miss the immersion and bad ass-ness of the first Driver (I wish the Midnight Club team had control of that franchise this gen, they would have done it right).

I also think that mating a decent game engine like that in NFS Shift (which can act like arcade or sim) with a realistic hit to pass + demo derby theme would also be lots of fun (beer garden, red necks, greasy onion rings, black particulate in the nostrils, indecipherable announcer, hell yeah!)


Cheers
 
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Something else that would help with some of these is an open world racer with checkpoints. You have a big map, you can drive anywhere you want on that map. You have a checkpoint. How you get to that checkpoint is up to you.

Would work for cities, outdoors, whatever. Don't feel like racing go exploring. Find some cool alternative paths. Have a car that is far superior to the competition? Make your own more difficult path as a personal handicap.

Probably too much work though to provide enough open world environments to make it really interesting though.

I'd still settle for an Interstate 76 or Interstate 8x. :D Damn you Interplay for going out of business!!!

Regards,
SB
 
It's particularly Fury that is the better game in that sense, having a bigger variety in gameplay styles so that you can play a lot more according to your own preference. Since I'm a bit bored with the racing style in Wipeout HD (I would have liked a version or game mode that was accelleration-pad less, and one that made better use of sixaxis or in the future maybe Move - right now there is so much assist on d-pad, and the accelleration pad system makes the gameplay so comparatively simple, it's just not suitable to more subtle controls) I'm a big fan of zone, eliminator, and detonator in particular and in Fury I can play primarily those and still progress. I hate the tournaments.

For Motorstorm they should add challenges, mini and party game modes that showcase the physics. Give me a Motostrom version of Angry Birds, maybe. ;)

Yes. I meant Wipeout HD as a total package including Fury.

What do you mean with assist on D-pad btw? I didnt get what you meant there

The acceleration pad system I think adds some depth to the game especially on normal racers with weapons/power ups because you have to consider either to sacrifice speed in favor of passing through a weapon pad, or sacrifice a chance to get a weapon in favor of passing through an acceleration pad. You can also place bombs and mines on acceleration pads and/or weapon pads strategically to slow down opposition.


Personally I loved every single mode. The sense of speed, especially in Phantom class along with the appropriate soundtrack is unmatched by any other racing game I have played so far. Its one of those games where soundtrack and gameplay are in tandem
 
I'd still settle for an Interstate 76 or Interstate 8x. :D Damn you Interplay for going out of business!!!

Regards,
SB

You do know there was an Interstate '82 game right? Wasn't as good as '76 but still worth playing imo.
Rockstar could use the terrain from Red Dead and cars from GTA to remake such games pretty easily I think. They'd just need to name them differently or buy the rights from Activision.
 
Something else that would help with some of these is an open world racer with checkpoints. You have a big map, you can drive anywhere you want on that map. You have a checkpoint. How you get to that checkpoint is up to you.

Would work for cities, outdoors, whatever. Don't feel like racing go exploring. Find some cool alternative paths. Have a car that is far superior to the competition? Make your own more difficult path as a personal handicap.

Probably too much work though to provide enough open world environments to make it really interesting though.

I'd still settle for an Interstate 76 or Interstate 8x. :D Damn you Interplay for going out of business!!!

Regards,
SB

Didn't you have the idea that developers re-use the same open worlds? So rather than recreating New York for instance as an example Rockstar could use Liberty city and make a racing game inside that game world.
 
Something else that would help with some of these is an open world racer with checkpoints. You have a big map, you can drive anywhere you want on that map. You have a checkpoint. How you get to that checkpoint is up to you.

Would work for cities, outdoors, whatever. Don't feel like racing go exploring. Find some cool alternative paths. Have a car that is far superior to the competition? Make your own more difficult path as a personal handicap.

Probably too much work though to provide enough open world environments to make it really interesting though.

I'd still settle for an Interstate 76 or Interstate 8x. :D Damn you Interplay for going out of business!!!

Regards,
SB

open world racer with checkpoints... sounds good on paper but in practice (this was done back in PS2 with La Rush) it can be very messy, confusing and should not be realistic at all.

There's no evolution to the racing genre, other than realism, which is lost on most people. Otherwise it's exactly the same games we've played for a decade with tarted up visuals, whereas every other genre is undergoing advances (or did with the case of FPS/TPSes, which have now exhausted their progression and are becoming very samey).

I think it's a dying genre, like classic platforming (Sonic and Mario), and scrolling shooters that had their hey-day in the 16 bit era, and which will come back after a prolonged absence when gamers want a change from the current fashions.

There is evolution in racing genre and its not limited to realism, its arcade style racing that is fantasy like in the sense that the things you do cannot be done in real life and the Sim like style racing where realism is imitated but not completely because the fact is if you take a car no matter how good your skill and you make an error, thats it, even though you did not complete the lap you messed up and the car or you are dead.

The evolution comes in the form of graphics and physics and gameplay, obviously Gran Turismo is not going to play like Ridge Racer, they are two different subgenres of racing.

As to why NFS, Blur and Split Second have failed, its probably more to do that alot of the gameplay being offered has been rehashed too often, yearly in some cases and how you can accept a game like SplitSecond, I really don't buy it. Also the graphical direction that NFS has taken makes me feel that they are just not trying hard enough.

Motorstorm has established itself as a skills based racer with danger and lets face it, in a race there can only be a winner and losers, alot of gamers, specially online gamers are not known for their sportsmanship or the ability to take a loss.

Interstate 78 and Twisted Metal are not really racing games, they are more like arena destruction derbies with weapons. Wipeout and F-Zero share the futuristic thrills but wipeout adds weapons to the mix yet they both share game following from over 10 years ago.

There is still alot of work that can be done with racing games, but its up to the developers to make it and the gamers to recognize it and not go and just play CoDMW2 or Halo.
 
The evolution comes in the form of graphics and physics and gameplay,...
I mentioned the graphics. Physics I don't think affects most gamers, to whom GT3 was 'perfect' and who won't be interested to buy GT5 on account of improved physics. Gameplay on the other hand hasn't much evolved and hasn't room to. What's different from Forza or GT versus their predecessors? Whatever car-collecting "career mode" mechanics you have, the end result is driving the same (sort) of cars around the same tracks, just like last gen. Compare that to prerrenial games like FIFA which have subtle progressions buyers get board with, but also complete engine overhauls from time to time that lead to better games. Because the football genre is so far from realistic, there's plenty more room to improve, so there's reason to buy FIFA this gen versus last, and reason to buy it again next gen. Same with shooters, which are much bigger in scope and variety now than last gen, but going forward will there be any improvements to keep the genre alive? Whereas last gen racing got pretty-much nailed and anyone who spent weeks and weeks on GT will already have had a very filling racing experience - do they really want that same experience again or something new? Racers are equivalent to formulaic sequels. How many Die Hard's or Rocky's will the public care to see at the cinema if every one is broadly the same as those already seen?
 
open world racer with checkpoints... sounds good on paper but in practice (this was done back in PS2 with La Rush) it can be very messy, confusing and should not be realistic at all.

They could load in barriers for different tracks then it would basically be PGR with a whole lot of tracks all in the same city.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Can pretty much blame EA for driving the series into the ground (NFS). They've treated that series far worse than Activision will ever be able to do with COD, IMO.

Used to be a diehard NFS fan waaaay back when (10+ years ago). Now I don't even bother to look at the series anymore.

Regards,
SB

I'd say Shift is quite good (but I'll agree with you on Undercover and several previous entries). Also, a revival of the Test Drive series would be welcome. I fondly recall the original in 4-color CGA...
 
Car racing is very popular in Europe. You have F1, GT series of various kinds, etc. In the US, it's all about Nascar, and comparatively it's quite boring. It's also important to consider how much skill some of the more simulation-ish race games need. The demand for instant gratification is even more so these days as the lot of us have little patience, especially as we fill our lives with so much crap in the first place. Despite this, I'm still a sim-racer kind of guy. Personally I hate kart-racers, and I'm the same way about flight sims too. I would make an exception for a game like Motorstorm, because the controls are realistic to an extent, and it's brand of racing seemed very fresh and still does at times. I'm personally very excited about the F1 2010 game, especially since it's coming to PC :D I should also make sure to recommend Ferrari Challenge to sim enthusiasts, as it's very much like Gran Turismo in feel. Never played NFS: Shift. How is it? Oh and I just noticed someone mentioning TDU2. Only played the demo to the first one, but I loved it and I'm intending to get the second one. I need to preorder it as well as F1 2010. Including GT5, that's quite a bit of racing to be looking forward to. Now I just only need to get a nice fancy Logitech steering wheel + pedals.
 
In this particular aspect of my gaming tastes I must be really obsessive, because combining games from XTS and PS3 I own 12 titles of the genre.

In fact, I love cars, and of the total bunch of racing games I´ve bought the last 3 years I´ve played more or less intensively at least 8, but in any case the point is that I understand why the genre is getting stuck. The problem is the small amount of "differences" a non-lover of cars can detect in the plethora of racing games available.

What makes Pure different from Motorstorm? A lot of things I´d say, but, does the average player think the same? Buggy cars in natural landscapes with stunning vistas. That´s all, not bad, but samey. I appreciate to a extreme degree the "feel" of PGR4, for example, that makes the game really stand in its own, the delicious handling, equally appealing for soft simulation lovers and arcade players. But the average Joe sees another city racer.

In fact, the main problem that I found is the "fusion" tendencies. Dirt for example: what type of racing game is it? A mix. More and more games invade territories that were not intended to be occupied. Blur is a mix of Wipeout and Mario Kart with the previous PGR feel. A remarcable one, but I see the racing genre well stablished for a long time, may be a bit "hardcore" in its roots, and with niches strongly founded. Let´s see, you have drifting arcades (Ridge Racer) with its own appeal, pseudo-sims covering "normal" cars (Forza´s, Enthusia, GT) and specific competitions (F1, NASCAR, WRC), tuning titles (NFS, etc), off-road racers, and so on.

But now some kind of "casual" approach and and a dangerous decision ("more -and less focused- is better") give us titles that are in the middle of nowhere: GRID is thrilling, but too big and the cars slide like, well, like a Ridge Racer arcade. Dirt is behind Motorstorm and the Monster truck fever; Split Second emulates the chaos of a GTA and mix it with maybe Criterion´s Burnout disasters.

I think that if the genre is in line with niche approaches the games would be less difficult to program, the assets nightmare would be less overwhelming and probably the "adept" would buy in their respective home. I wonder why there´s not a soft-sim WRC title available, or a F1 apart from the installment from Studio Liverpool (a good one, I think). Same cars, same roads, retouched engines and refreshed licenses would be enough to feed the hard aficionado keeping costs low.

In fact, I just need one Ridge Racer for generation, because I only need one drifting arcade. The fact that I own so many racing titles this generation makes me wonder if I was searching something without succes: a really different game and not a clone, an ambitious clone, because GRID is really ambitious; but I don´t think the searching for the definitive racing game is a good thing. The "hard" will find the title soft-sided, and the casual may be confused.

The question is, for example, why Bizarre didn´t keep in line with a saga with specific strenghts like PGR? The sales wouldn´t go much lower than PGR4...With the boom of its new game may be the case that the company is in danger. They´re taking risks that the market is not demanding by any means; and the healthy enough brand PGR is forgotten.

The market is looking to other genres. Shooters, for example. In these situations being conservative is a good bet, for sure. Keep expectations low and survive, making good games and waiting opportunities. The Ridge Racer approach is correct, I think; small game, good technology (60/1080 is REALLY a safe and satisfying thing for an arcade racer), focusing in something that the team really make well. It wouldn´t destroy charts for sure, but the brand is healthy and so is the company (I bet).
 
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