Lazy Q: Plasmas: Pana 50" 1080p, Pio 4280, or what?

[Pete]

I haven't kept up recently, and I've got to make a quick recommendation. Let's say for 10-15 feet, generally TV watching, HD sources to come later, so mostly SD right now (and I'm guessing DVDs, too).

The 50" Pannys seem to be coming down in price, to under $2k for the 1080p models. First, 50": I guess bigger is always better, and at 10' 1080p might be worth considering. I'm assuming Panny's are still at least as good as anyone else save Pioneer in terms of black levels and SD sources. Surprising to see it at ~$1800. I believe this is the Panasonic TH-50PZ77U. (700W power draw? )

But is it worth trading the size and the res for (according to all I've read) the Pio 4280's luscious black levels and above-average SD upscaling? I'm picky about these things, but does the difference in size trump that in quality? Again, seems to be ~$1800.

Or should I consider Samsungs or LG? Or just settle for a 42" 768p Panny, which I saw for a really surprising $900 at Costco?

Just wondering if I should go with my instinct for quality over anything and so the 42" 768p Pio over a 50" 1080p Panny, or, if "good enough" and price are the main factors, if the $900 42" Panny is the way to go (and in a few years, that $900 saved can go to a cheaper Panny-Pio hybrid)?

Throw some opinions out, if you can spare a sec.

Edit: I admit I'm being swayed by the 1080p more than in the past, though I recently saw two 50" Pannys side by side and I did notice that text was noticeably blocky on the 768p model vs. the 1080p one. Then again, I was standing like four feet away. But I'm still wary of a 42"er's slightly odd/low 10x7, tho I've only got experience with a Sammy 42".

Edit 2: So, the Pana 50" 1080p TH-50PZ77U (with anti-glare) for $1680, the Pana 50" 720p TH-50PC77U for $1400, Pio 4280HD for $1800, or Pana TH42PC77U for $900. Spoilt for choice....

 

[Ty]

If you got the time, it's worth it to take a more accurate measurement of how far you'll be sitting at home and then stand that far away from the display at the store - there's no substitute for your using your own eyes while mimicking your home environment as close as possible.

That said, IMO, 10ft is pretty damn close to making 1080p useless. When I was shopping for my plasma a few years ago, I knew that SD programming would still be the vast majority of what we watch so though price was important, the quality of the scaler was huge. I'd get the sales associate to play some SD content as personally, I found the Panny's to be so-so at SD scaling - better than most but still weird at times.

At 12', 42" is damn small. Again, IMO.

 

[Pete]

Thanks, Ty. I can't use my own eyes, b/c the recommendation is for s/o else. My limited experience with a 42" @ 6' indicates it's about perfect at that distance, so I agree it'll be too small at 12'. So the question becomes, should I recommend the 50" 720p Pana over the 1080p one? If resolution is effectively irrelevant, then it's a few hundred less, and the Costco warranty is a bonus.

Mind telling me what set you have, and how you like it? I mean, did the Pana's SD scaling put you off of it entirely?

 

[Ty]

At 12' and 50", I personally wouldn't bother with 1080p. Is 50" the biggest you can go? I'm about 8ft from where my TV is and though I'm looking at buying a new 50" (Kuro FTW!), I wish I could actually go larger but can't due to where it will be above the fireplace.

I have an older NEC plasma which has a better scaler than the Panny one that was available back then so maybe it's better now. I still love my current set but it's only 42" and has some false contouring I'd love to not see anymore.

 

[kyleb]

768p on a 50" at 10' is right at the limit of 20/20 vision. See here:

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

There is no reason to be wary of resolution on 42" plasmas either, 1024x768 is greater than what can be resolved from a display area that size at normal viewing distances, and favoring the vertical resolution helps them hold up better than 1280x720 displays under closer inspection.

I agree with TY though, at 10'+ I'd consider at least a 50" minimum. I view my 50" at 8', and I would have gone larger if it wouldn't have resulted in blocking out even more of the windows in the room.

 

[Ty]

768p on a 50" at 10' is right at the limit of 20/20 vision. See here:

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

Not sure if you're trying to disagree with me but that chart is precisely why at 12' and 50", I don't think 1080p is worth it over 720p. At 12', you're well into resolving 720p but not sitting close enough for 1080p.

 

[pascal]

I have a Panny 42" (equivalent to TH42PX70) and what is most important for me now is improve black levels and contrast. Maybe the new Panny PX80 series with improved black level could be what you are looking for: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Panasonic-TH42PX80/
The new model:
- can turn off overscan (better pixel mapping)
- improved black levels
- better contrast
Great performance for good price :smile:

Plasma HDTVs are improving fast and in a couple of years probably you will want to upgrade. This is my feeling with my TVs now.

Look at this thread for more info about the PX80 series: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1000259
One post I found there

I spent some time tonight at BB where they had the 42PX80 right next to a Pioneer 4280 Kuro. I was there last week looking at the Kuro and had adjusted it so it would look normal (as in whites looking white, deep blacks, more accurate color temp, etc) and to my surprise, it was still set this way tonight. At first, the PX80 looked more washed out and way to bright. After putting the color temp on warm, turning down the contrast and brightness, cutting the color level a little, making sure all dynamic modes and NR were off, the picture was almost identical to the Kuro. The Kuro still had a slightly deeper black. In the setup menu on the PX80 there was a setting for black level which I could not access (it was in the menu but was greyed out). If I could access that adjustment and possibly set it to 'darker' from the 'lighter' setting that it was in, it might give the PX80 the extra black that the Kuro had. No one knew how to adjust the set and a manual could not be found, so I may be wrong about this.

What was interesting was during the time I was adjusting the sets, a few people came to inquire what I was doing (both sales and customers). When they saw how much better the sets were looking and how they compared to the LCD's that were around them they all stated that plasma was the better in picture quality. I even adjusted a LCD set next to the PX80 to see how black it could get (a Sharp model) and one could really see just how 'dark grey' LCD's blacks are compared to plasma's.

At $400 less than the Kuro, the 42PX80 is a bargan (even at list price) and will be my next purchase!

 

[Ty]

Even though I presume the sets were in the Magnolia portion of the store (BB's higher end equipment) and thus darker, it's still very possible that there was so much ambient lighting that it would make it difficult to compare black levels and shadow details.

Not to pooh pooh on Pannys, they are truly great bang for the buck but from the reviews I've read, the Kuro is still noticeably ahead in black levels and SD scaling too.

This may change depending on what technology is actually transferred (if any) from Pioneer to Panasonic from the panel outsourcing. You should expect huge benefits though, with 10 lumen panels coming next year I think.

 

[pascal]

Kuro still have better blacks, but the difference is much lower now between a 8G Pioneer and PX80 Panasonic. See the values below:

All right, let's get the first question on everyone's mind out of the way: the calibrated black level on Panasonic TH42PX80Buy this for £738.00 at Dixons
Use code 'AW20' to get £20 off was not as deep as that on the Pioneer PDP-4280XD, but it's getting closer. Here are some hard numbers I measured:

Plasma Television Calibrated Black Level (in cd/m2) 
Pioneer PDP-4280XD 0.03 
Panasonic TH42PX80 0.05 
Panasonic TH42PZ70 0.06 
Panasonic TH42PX70 0.08

The PX80 has 40% deeper blacks than PX70. Great improvment.:smile:

 

[Pete]

I'll be going to a store to check some out in person, mainly b/c I'm sick of researching but also to see the different resolutions and sizes in person. kyle, as the title indicates, I was too lazy to even consult that graph.

I'm a little surprised black levels are dropping so noticeably, but I guess my scoffing at Pana's claimed 10,000:1 to 30,000:1 gain was ignorant considering Pio's shown the bar is higher, and hdtvtest has shown the gap has narrowed. It's interesting to note that the 1080p 'Z' Pannys are 30k:1 while the 768p 'X's like the PX80U are just 15k:1, so the PZ85U may pull almost even with the 4280. That would leave scaling and source processing as Pio's advantages, and given the PX85U is $1700 and the 4280 is $1800, the Pio seems worth the slight premium at this size. I'm sure the Panny will drop in price quickly, though.

The comments section at hdtvtest mention the new LGs are getting early positive press, tho as I don't see them on any store or comparison site, they're too far out for immediate consideration.

Really, I'm curious if I'll detect an improvement b/w the 11G and 10G sets in a harsh store environment, and if that'll let me determine how much of a price premium it warrants.

BTW, my jaw dropped a little when I saw the (max, I'm sure, and well above average) power draw of the 1080p Pannys: 700W vs. 500W for equal-size 768p sets. Heck, even the new 42" Z pulls 630W, so well more than the 50" X and only 70W off of the 50" Z.

 

[kyleb]

Not sure if you're trying to disagree with me but that chart is precisely why at 12' and 50", I don't think 1080p is worth it over 720p. At 12', you're well into resolving 720p but not sitting close enough for 1080p.

I presented the chart to reinforce your point.

And Pete, note that max power draw on a plasma is when it is displaying a solid white screen, typical use is far less.

 

[pascal]

I presented the chart to reinforce your point.

And Pete, note that max power draw on a plasma is when it is displaying a solid white screen, typical use is far less.

Not true. My 42" plama TV is rated at 385W by Panasonic as average power. I asked the Panny product manager and he said that it is measured with maximum bright and contrast with HALF white and HALF black bars. This is a condition (50% screen white) that will rarelly happens. I tried to measure the average power draw from my plasma (calibrated) using an amperimeter and with blue screen (windows) it is 120W and with BDs and DVDs around 200W for dark movies like Riddick to 250W to movies like Ice Age.

 

[kyleb]

My 42" plama TV is rated at 385W by Panasonic as average power. I asked the Panny product manager and he said that it is measured with maximum bright and contrast with HALF white and HALF black bars.

And again, a full white screen is how the maximum power draw is determined, with typical use being far less.

 

[pascal]

And again, a full white screen is how the maximum power draw is determined, with typical use being far less.

Agree, but the power values Pete talked about are average. IIRC Panasonic doesnt determine the maximum for plasma TVs, only the average in the manuals. Agree, typical usage is about 50% to 70% of average power.

 

[kyleb]

Pete said max, and Panasonic manuals such as this state the maxmum, in the chart on page 51.

 

[Pete]

I thought they were max, but it's just listed as "power consumption" (toward the bottom). I guess I wouldn't want to be be using Word or Excel on one of these.

 

[pascal]

Thanks kyleb.

But these are not really maximum, they are average figures with half white and half black bars and maximum bright and maxium contrast.
My TV is model TH42PV70LB which is equivalent to the US model TH42PX75U. You can find the US model manual here http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/TH42PX75U.PDF and it states 387W maximum (page 47)!!!

I tested my TV using a hook like amperimeter and the current figures can go as high as 4 amps during some scenes. I imagine that a fully white and fully bright signal will measure something in the 600W range, but no signal is pure white and at full brightness (thanks god).

The Panasonic brazilian product manager explained me how their engineers measure this value and that it is average (because it has only 50% white signal).

See this post from him in a brazilian forum: http://www.htforum.com/vb/showthread.php?p=809395&highlight=pascal#post809395
He agrees with my measurements :smile:
Also the Panasonic´s brazilians manuals state average.

 

[Pete]

Thanks for your experience, pascal. Hard to believe you want better blacks/contrast, considering hdtvtest said all were "excellent," but as Pio's still considered the king, I guess even your Panny's got room for improvement. And then there's all that talk of the next Pio's making this gen of Kuro look gray....

 

[pascal]

The Panasonic plasmas TVs doesnt have a gamma control, but have a simplified black level control with only two options (dark/light), and the default black level is "light". All tests/reviews of Panny plamas I have seen use only the "light" black level for calibration because it has much better shadow details (and I confirm it).

Sometimes I use the dark black level and colours are simply gorgeus with this option, but most shadow details dissapear. With the light black level the scenes looks gray compared to the same scenes in dark mode.

I wish I could have a Panny plasma TV in dark black level mode with all shadow details. Maybe the new PX80 TVs are close to what I wish

Unfortunatelly Pioneers are not easilly available here in Brasil, are much more expensive than Pannys and without warranty.

 

[Pete]

A visit to the store told me nothing. I was reminded how bad in-store feeds are and how atrocious BB's TV section is. CC was better, but I still didn't bother asking them to switch to a real HD channel.

I couldn't distinguish any difference b/w a 75U and an 80U Panasonic, but, again, the environment was so bad even the Pioneers didn't look much better than LCDs next to them.

The 85U are the latest Panasonics (30,000:1 dynamic contrast, vs. 15k:1 for the 80U and 10k:1 for the 75U), but I'll have to wait for a review to tell me the difference, b/c the big box stores generally suck for that sort of thing.