Kyoto FLAMEWAR!

Mariner said:
Something such as major volcanic eruptions could have caused an overall drop in temperature, I expect. I've no idea if this is the case or not in this case.

That gave me an idea. I googled and came up with the following pdf, http://www.agu.org/meetings/cc02babstracts/Budner-stu.pdf which gives a short blurb on an expedition to Antarctica in 2000/2001 which produced two ice cores. Those ice cores detailed three major volcanic eruptions on the planet in the 13th century, that had been unknown until the core's retrieval.

It also had evidence of the well known eruption of Huaynaputina in 1600 and the Kuwae eruption in 1454.

Considering the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo lowered global temperatures 0.2 degrees alone for a few years, three major eruptions within the same timeframe, dispersed across the globe, could have lowered global temperature by 0.6 degrees.
 
Fred said:
One notion I reject is the implicit FAITH that the Earth will naturally overcome any obstacle the Human species throw at it.

Actually from heavy numerical work, one can find various models which display the so called venus run away reactions. In fact, there is heavy evidence that the planet Venus lost its atmosphere through a greenhouse reaction.

Perhaps I should be more clear. Irregardless of humans, the earth might hit a point in phase space that destroys any path back to equilibrium. It is not inconceivable that human based emmissions could contribute to this situation.
I reject that too Fred.
Finally we agree about something :)

IMHO while we dont understand it with more accuracy and precision we need some precautions measures. All have to contribute.
 
This is one of the reasons why scientists are expecting the huge jump in worldwide temperature in the next century, because we only in the past 5-10 years hit the carbon load limit of the planet, and exceeded it. It's not coincidence that the period from 1930 - 1980 was the hottest recorded 50 year period on record in the past 1,000 years, when using carbon dating methods on ice, trees, and fossils, and that the decade from 1990 - 2000 had 3 of the hottest years on record ever (1993, 1994, and 1998). 1991 - 1992 were cooled because of the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Phillippines, which caused worldwide temperatures to drop during that two year period by 0.2 degrees, before heating up rapidly in 1993 as the cloud cover dispersed.
O.K. the last 5-10 yers we "hit our limit"
I can only speculate as to the temperature building in the 20th century occurring mostly before the large buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere. I'm assuming that the CO2 released to the atmosphere does not immediately get absorbed by the forests and the oceans. So the climate was indeed heating up, but eventually the atmosphere would be cleansed as the oceans and forests did their thing. But after a while, the oceans and forests could no longer completely purge the atmosphere of the CO2, so it began to linger.
Oh...wait, we "hit our limit" 50-60 years ago...
As to why the temperature rise was roughly the same in the 19th century as it was in the 20th century, I think it goes back to my original theory regarding the loads that the earth is able to absorb. I believe we've been affecting our climate since the beginning of the industrial revolution on a global scale. While people historically have its peak in the late 19th, early 20th century, the industrial revolution really began with the advent of such technologies as the steam engine in the early 19th century.
huh?...that limit again..."loads that the earth is able to absorb"

Up until the past few decades, we've been within the limits the earth could naturally replenish itself and remove pollutants in the biosphere. However we've recently gone over the threshold of pollution and resource removal. That would explain why the temperature increase is expected to explode in the 21st century.
Oh, wait...were still within the limits!!? Oh back to the beginning!

Sounds like a lot of speculation. You assume that the "CO2 released to the atmosphere does not immediately get absorbed by the forests and the oceans." But then it catches up. But then "the oceans and forests could no longer completely purge the atmosphere of the CO2, so it began to linger." Well for that to happen we (the world) must have had a pause in our polluting for it to "catch up", and then we went back to our dirty ways...Come on Natoma! This issue is much more complex than this and your just speculating away! How about this possibilty- (you asked Pax for info on the SUN, this might be it, I don't know)

http://www.envirotruth.org/myth3.cfm
The hypothesis that rising CO2 levels result in a direct increase in temperature originated in 1896 with Swedish chemist, Svante Arrhenius. However, the concept was abandoned in the 1940s because global temperatures had not even remotely matched the 1°C rise predicted by the theory. Since then, the rate of global warming has slowed despite the acceleration in industrialization and CO2 emissions.

A good example of the sort of misinformation that is being publicized regarding this topic is seen in the following quote from Dr. (Zoology) David Suzuki in the June 21, 2002 version of his "Science Matters" column that appeared in newspapers across Canada: "Increased concentration of carbon dioxide, the most important heat-trapping gas, has pushed up global temperatures, which will continue to rise unless emissions are stabilized and reduced."

Dr. Tim Ball, environmental consultant and climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg for 32 years, responds, "The Suzuki comment displays an ignorance of climate science. Even the Greenpeace report on global warming concedes that water vapour is the most abundant and most important greenhouse gas. Water vapour is ignored because the models can't include clouds. Imagine recommending devastating economic and therefore social policy based on a climate model that can't even include clouds!" In fact, CO2 is less than 3 percent of greenhouse gases (GHG). Water vapor constitutes 97 percent. Other GHG are methane, nitrous oxide, ozone and trace gases.

It is very revealing that an increase in the production of water vapor at the equator during the 1998 El Niño climate event caused worldwide average temperatures to spike by almost 1°C that year. The human contribution to the atmosphere's total water vapor content is trivial by comparison. A study by Dr. Kevin Telmer, Assistant Professor in the School of Earth and Ocean Sciences at the University of Victoria, and Dr. Jan Veizer, Professor of Geology at the University of Ottawa, demonstrates that the larger amounts of water vapor in the atmosphere at higher temperature permit more CO2 to be absorbed by plants (see www.spacedaily.com/news/greenhouse-00zf.html). Thus, we have a self-regulating system that helps keep the climate in check.

Of the 0.7°C global temperature rise in the past century, half of it occurred before 1940, although most of the buildup in human-induced CO2 has occurred since then. It is also important to understand that our Sun, the ultimate source of all atmospheric warmth, is currently brighter than at any time in the past 400 years. Dr. Tim Patterson, professor of earth sciences (Paleoclimatology) at Carleton University concludes, "With our star's variability accounting for about half of all the recorded warming in the last hundred years, only 0.3°C is left over for everything else, including urbanization and land use. The amount is even less if an additional 0.1-0.2°C of natural temperature fluctuation is factored in. If increased C02 levels have contributed to global warming at all in the past century, its contribution must have been very minor indeed."

Dr. Sallie Baliunas and Dr. Willie Soon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics blame variations in the Sun's brightness, not CO2 levels, for most of Earth's climate change. This idea is further supported by climatologists Marcel Fligge and Sami Solanki who demonstrated in a recent edition of the respected journal, Geophysical Research Letters, that the warming or cooling of the Earth during the past four centuries closely matches variations in the Sun's brightness. Whether they were looking at the Little Ice Age of the latter seventeenth century, the rapid warming in the early part of the twentieth century or the relatively unchanging temperatures of recent decades, our star's output and global temperatures were closely correlated. NASA's Paal Brekke explains, "... the Sun may be a much more important contributor to global climate change than previously assumed." Dr. Ball sums up, "Ignoring the Sun and water vapor as causes of climate change is like ignoring the transmission and engine when the car is not working."

Like carbon cycle modelers, Dr. Ball and Dr. Veizer believe that CO2 merely responds to temperature changes; it does not cause them. Here is some of the evidence that supports this hypothesis:
Global mean atmospheric concentration of CO2 has been found to lag behind changes in tropical sea surface (and hence atmospheric) temperature by six to eight months. As the ocean warms, it is unable to hold as much CO2 in solution and consequently releases the gas into the atmosphere contributing to the observed CO2 level rise;
Ice core records show that, at the end of each of the last three major ice ages, atmospheric temperatures rose several hundred years before CO2 levels finally increased;
At the beginning of the most recent glacial period, about 114,000 years ago, atmospheric CO2 remained relatively high even as temperatures plummeted.
Finally, recent publications in the prestigious journals, "Science" and "Paleoceanography" show that CO2 levels were higher at the end of the last ice age than during the much warmer Eocene period, 43 million years earlier. These studies also found that CO2 levels are far higher today than they were during the relatively hot Miocene period, 17 million years ago.
Clearly, variations in the Sun's brightness should be far more interesting to those concerned about future climate change than the relatively trivial and inconsistent effect of changes in atmospheric CO2 levels.
Dr. Petr Chylek, Professor of Physics and Atmospheric Science at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, concludes, "It is highly probable that global average temperature will go up and down during future years regardless of what we do."
 
I don't quite buy the precautionary principle (as its called by greens) either. I mean we could go to the extreme and say any sort of emmision by the human race is unnacceptable and go on a witch hunt over it. In which case they'll have to pry the CO2 emmissions out of my dead corpse.

More research must be done on the subject, its not clear yet what exactly the state was like say on Venus. Nor is it scientifically indisputable if we are even contributing to anything of the sort.

Destroying our global economies over this seems like drastic overkill, and actually detrimental to a long term solution.

Truth be told, im more irate about the destruction of the rain forests (for many reasons other than just the greenhouse effect), than I am about America's withdrawal from Kyoto.

The 'precautionary principle' can be applied indiscriminately to many avenues of interest to science, its use in this case is IMO very premature.
 
Extreme precautionary is not a good idea but a conservative precautionary could be and Kyoto IMHO is conservative.

Also I dont see it as destroying any economy but modifying it. IMHO modifying for better and more technology based.

This US Kyoto/oil/tax complex and interconnected measures are IMHO just old.

No action is aburd.

OT: The rain forest is something we need precaution because of the possibility of desertifation process. It has the potential to be a desert larger than the Saara because the forest is based on a thin layer of rich soil and the trees (increbilly big) roots do go more than one meter down and spread tens of meters.
 
More research must be done on the subject, its not clear yet what exactly the state was like say on Venus. Nor is it scientifically indisputable if we are even contributing to anything of the sort.

Destroying our global economies over this seems like drastic overkill, and actually detrimental to a long term solution.

Agreed.
 
Again I dont see any economy destruction. Doing it correctlly the impact is less than 1% of the GDP.http://www.stanford.edu/group/MERGE/kyoto.pdf

Well there are numerous studys out that suggest otherwise -
http://www.globalwarming.org/econup/econ6-3-99.html
Costs of Kyoto will be High Regardless of Flexible Mechanisms
One of the most hotly debated issues of global warming is the cost of complying with the Kyoto Protocol. Some private sector estimates put the cost as high as $300 billion per year, while the Clinton Administration’s Council of Economic Advisors claims it will cost no more than $12 billion per year. The administration argues that the large difference between the two estimates is the assumption of flexible mechanisms such as emission trading and joint implementation....A new study, sponsored by the National Center for Policy Analysis, a member of the Cooler Heads Coalition, concludes that the cost of complying with Kyoto will be high regardless of the use of flexible mechanisms. ....<snip>.....Without the use of flexible mechanisms, compliance with Kyoto would lower GDP by 3.6 to 5.1 percent by 2010, or between $330 billion to $467 billion. With flexible mechanisms those costs are only reduced slightly, from 3 to 4.3 percent of GDP. Brown concludes, "if reducing CO2 emissions is similar to purchasing insurance against the possible consequences of global warming, these figures suggest that U.S. compliance with the Kyoto accord represents a costly and excessive insurance." The study can be found at www.ncpa.org/studies/s224.html.

http://www.globalwarming.org/econup/econ10-20-98.html
Government Study Contradicts Administration’s Cost Estimates
Several studies done by private, econometric modeling firms show the costs of complying with the Kyoto Protocol to be high. Critics argue that these studies cannot be trusted given that they were funded by the fossil fuel industry. A new government study, however, has just been released which validate the findings of the industry-funded studies, and counters claims by the Clinton Administration the costs will be negligible......<snip>.....The EIA estimates that the Kyoto Protocol will cost the U.S. economy $64 billion per year. Under a carbon tax, energy prices will double by 2010 and then "decline to 79 percent above reference case price levels in 2020." Gasoline prices could rise by 53 percent and electricity prices could rise by as much as 86 percent by 2010. Overall the EIA study paints a rather gloomy economic picture under the Kyoto Protocol. The study is available on the web at http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/kyoto/kyotorpt.html

http://www.globalwarming.org/econup/econ6-13-01.htmFormer Clinton Aides Now Admit Kyoto Would Be Costly
Amidst major criticism from both domestic environmental groups and European officials, President Bush is receiving aid and comfort from an unexpected source – former Clinton Administration officials. Bush has stated that the U.S. will not comply with the Kyoto Protocol because it is "fatally flawed" and would impose undue economic hardships on the country.

Now, according to the June 12 issue of USA Today, "Economists from the Clinton White House now concede that complying with Kyoto’s mandatory reductions in greenhouse gases would be difficult – and more expensive to American consumers than they thought when they were in charge." This change in tune from the Clintonites is part of the reason that Bush decided to reject Kyoto.

The Clinton Administration was overly optimistic about the costs of Kyoto because its economic analysis was based on unrealistic assumptions. It assumed, for instance, that China and India would accept emissions reduction limits and that they would be able to fully participate in an unlimited international emissions trading system. China has made it clear, however, that it will not accept commitments, and the European Union has remained opposed to unlimited emissions trading.

http://www.globalwarming.org/econup/econ1-24-01.htm
IPCC: Kyoto would be Costly
Working Group III of the IPCC report predicts that compliance with the Kyoto Protocol would reduce economic growth by as much as 2 percent per year in the industrialized countries, according to the January 9 issue of Japan Times. This closely matches predictions by several other economic studies. Economic growth rates in industrial countries hover around 2 percent per year. That would be consumed by the Kyoto Protocol.

http://www.globalwarming.org/econup/econ4-4.html
United States’ Compliance Costs
A study by the non-partisan Wharton Econometrics Forecasting Associates (WEFA, Inc.) outlines the state-by-state costs of complying with the Kyoto Protocol for the United States. The U.S. agreed to reduce its emissions to 7 percent below 1990 levels by 2008-2012. This means that the U.S. will have to reduce its emissions by 40 percent below levels predicted by the year 2010.

The study shows, for example, that California would lose approximately 300,000 jobs and wages would fall by as much as 3.2 percent. Energy prices would rise significantly. Residential electricity rates would increase by 29 percent, home heating oil by 53 percent and natural gas by 52 percent.

Other states would be similarly damaged. New York and Texas, for example, would lose 110,000 and 123,000 jobs respectively. New York’s residential electricity rates would increase by 37.7 percent while Texas’s increase by 58.7 percent. Higher energy prices, of course, would lead to higher grocery, housing and medical costs. The state-by-state breakdown of WEFA’s estimates of the costs of Kyoto can be found at www.rnc.org/news/kyoto/.

I'm sure that both of us could come up with many studys that support one side of the debate or the other. The question is which one do you believe?
 
Silent_One:

You're making this far more complex than it needs to be.

1) Carbon is released into the atmosphere.

2) The oceans and forests immediately begin to absorb the carbon, but the completion of the process is not instantaneous. During the time of absorption, the carbon lingers in the atmosphere and contributes to rising temperatures, however minute.

3) The planet has been absorbing our carbon emissions with relatively no problem for the past couple of centuries. As stipulated in point #2, the carbon was not immediately absorbed, and thus contributed to relatively small temperature increases while the natural carbon sinks of the planet did their work.

4) Only in the last decade roughly, when we have gone over the threshold of what the planet could effectively remove from the atmosphere in a given amount of time, have we noticed temperature fluctuations spiking faster than they historically have.

That is one of the reasons why scientists are able to predict a 1-3 degree celcius rise in temperatures by the end of this century, due to our rising dependence on carbon emitting technologies and fuels.

p.s.: Can you find any other sources regarding the economic problems with kyoto other than globalwarming.org? I mean, there must be other sources no?
 
Natoma-
Last things first:

p.s.: Can you find any other sources regarding the economic problems with kyoto other than globalwarming.org? I mean, there must be other sources no?

Of course :) (Question: Why? Do you have a problem with the studys sited by globalwarming.org?).

Here's links and/or studys from other sites:

Kyoto Treaty Wasteful, Lomborg Tells Chamber
http://www.uscib.org/\index.asp?documentID=2073
Lomborg, recently named director of the Environmental Assessment Institutein Denmark, argued that the projected 2010 cost associated with Kyoto of $150 to $200 billion could be better used to provide clean water and sanitation for everyone in the developing world. "Environmentalists would like you to think that we are cornered in terms of global warming, but we aren t. It s only when we acknowledge that we aren t cornered that we can look at whether our priorities are right and whether, for example, providing clean water should be a higher priority than addressing climate change."
First Step to What?
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11603
Clinton's own Department of Energy figured it would lower GDP by $397 billion and double the cost of energy. WEFA Inc., a respected economic consulting firm, projected it would result in the loss of 2.4 million jobs.

The Kyoto Protocol would have caused California to lose 278,000 jobs, New York to lose 140,000 jobs, and unemployment rates to reach 10 percent in Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, and Montana. State tax revenues would have plummeted as companies struggled to turn profits and fewer people were working, and for less money. Federal and state governments would have been forced to drastically cut existing social welfare programs or raise taxes dramatically.

And this is just the beginning, said Kyoto's supporters.

The Costs of Reducing Carbon Emissions
An Examination of Administration Forecasts
http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-044es.html
How much will it cost the United States to comply with the Kyoto protocol? The estimates range from over 4 percent of gross domestic product and $348 for the right to emit a ton of "greenhouse gases" to only .1 percent of GDP and $14 for the right to emit a ton of gases.

In the lowest cost scenarios, U.S. emitters purchase rights to emit from other countries. In the highest cost scenarios, actual U.S. emissions have to be reduced by about 30 percent from what they otherwise would be. Such a cut-back would imply a massive shift from coal- to natural-gas-fired electricity generation. But even the low-cost scenar-ios are excessively expensive because models of the atmo-sphere predict that very little warming would be prevented.

The Consequences Of Kyoto
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-307es.html
Last December the United States agreed at a United Nations meeting in Kyoto, Japan, to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases by 7 percent below 1990 levels. That reduction, to be achieved mainly by cutting the combustion of fossil fuels, will lower emission levels 41 percent below where they will likely be in the year 2010 if the trend observed since 1990 continues.
The Kyoto agreement--if fully complied with--would likely reduce the gross domestic product of the United States by 2.3 percent per year. However, according to a climate model of the National Center for Atmospheric Research recently featured in Science, the Kyoto emission-control commitments would reduce mean planetary warming by a mere 0.19 degree Celsius over the next 50 years. If the costs of preventing additional warming were to remain constant, the Kyoto Protocol would cost a remarkable 12 percent of GDP per degree of warming prevented annually over a 50-year period. :oops: .

TSR Extra - Recess Notes 2002:
Answers to Common Environmental Questions
http://www.nationalcenter.org/TSR72302.html
Issue: Emissions reductions demanded by the Kyoto Protocol would have had few economic effects.

Response: The Kyoto Protocol would have had a devastating affect on the U.S. economy, according to very conservative projections by the U.S. Energy Information Administration. They estimate gasoline prices would have risen 14 to 66 cents per gallon by the year 2010, electricity would have gone up 20 to 86 percent and gross domestic product would have fallen.

Other experts have predicted the output of energy intensive products, such as steel, chemicals, paper and cars would have fallen by as much as 15 percent. Such sweeping changes would cost the jobs of millions of Americans. That is why responsible leaders, such as Cecil E. Roberts, president of the United Mine Workers of America, and James Hoffa, president of the Teamsters Union, have expressed grave concerns about the Protocol.


natoma wrote:

Only in the last decade roughly, when we have gone over the threshold of what the planet could effectively remove from the atmosphere in a given amount of time, have we noticed temperature fluctuations spiking faster than they historically have.

And I Disagree. As I have show you before the assumption that the last decade has been "historically the hottest in the last 1000 years" is inaccurate.
Is Earth's Temperature Up or Down or Both?
http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/hl_temp_ud.html
Thermometers on the ground, measuring the near-surface air temperature, demonstrate a marked increase in globally-averaged temperature over the past two decades. Computer models of global warming predict that the temperature trend in the Earth's thick lower atmosphere, called the lower troposphere, should be experiencing an even more pronounced warming that increases smoothly with altitude. And yet, satellite observations of the temperature of the Earth's lower troposphere do not reveal any overall warming trend. Although interpreted by some as a controversy, research from NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center and the Global Hydrology and Climate Center now suggests that the temperature structure of the atmosphere is more complex than we (and our computer models) originally thought.

Measuring the Temperature of Earth From Space
Even with Needed Corrections, Data Still Don't Show the Expected Signature of Global Warming

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/notebook/essd13aug98_1.htm
)
The global decadal temperature trends, for the period 1979-1997, from the various satellite, weather balloon, and surface temperature measurements are as follows, in order of increasing temperature trend:

DEEP LAYER MEASUREMENTS

Weather balloon trend (Angell/NOAA) -0.07 deg. C/decade
Unadjusted satellite trend: -0.04 deg. C/decade
Weather balloon trend
(Parker, UK Met Office): -0.02 deg. C/decade
Our Adjusted Satellite Trend: -0.01 deg. C/decade
Wentz-estimated adjusted satellite trend: +0.08 deg. C/decade
SURFACE MEASUREMENTS

Sea surface and land surface temperatures
(U.K. Met Office): +0.15 deg. C/decade

4) The adjusted satellite trends are still not near the expected value of global warming predicted by computer climate models. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) 1995 estimate of average global warming at the surface until the year 2100 is +0.18 deg. C/decade. Climate models suggest that the deep layer measured by the satellite and weather balloons should be warming about 30% faster than the surface (+0.23 deg. C/decade). None of the satellite or weather balloon estimates are near this value.

5) 1998 UPDATE: The last six months of our adjusted satellite record (February through July 1998) were the warmest in the 20 year record. The updated trend is now +0.04 deg. C/decade (which is still only 1/6th of the IPCC-expected warming rate). The current demise of El Nino, and the possibility of a La Nina forming, will likely cause significant cooling in the coming months.

natoma wrote:
You're making this far more complex than it needs to be.
Sigh.....because it IS complex. You seem to think that everythiong fits into a neat little box. If it doesn't, then, as you say - "I can only speculate...."
If the issue is stright forward and indeed not complex then why the controversy? Why would thousands of scientists form all over the world sign a petition declaring that the Kyoto treaty is flawed?
Global Warming Petition
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
17,100 scientist sign Global Warming Petition :oops:
The United States is very close to adopting an international agreement that would ration the use of energy and of technologies that depend upon coal, oil, and natural gas and some other organic compounds.

This treaty is, in our opinion, based upon flawed ideas. Research data on climate change do not show that human use of hydrocarbons is harmful. To the contrary, there is good evidence that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide is environmentally helpful.

The proposed agreement would have very negative effects upon the technology of nations throughout the world, especially those that are currently attempting to lift from poverty and provide opportunities to the over 4 billion people in technologically underdeveloped countries..

During the past 2 years, more than 17,100 basic and applied American scientists, two-thirds with advanced degrees, have signed the Global Warming Petition.
Signers of this petition so far include 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists (select this link for a listing of these individuals) who are especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's atmosphere and climate.

Signers of this petition also include 5,017 scientists whose fields of specialization in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, and other life sciences (select this link for a listing of these individuals) make them especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide upon the Earth's plant and animal life.

Nearly all of the initial 17,100 scientist signers have technical training suitable for the evaluation of the relevant research data, and many are trained in related fields. In addition to these 17,100, approximately 2,400 individuals have signed the petition who are trained in fields other than science or whose field of specialization was not specified on their returned petition.

Of the 19,700 signatures that the project has received in total so far, 17,800 have been independently verified and the other 1,900 have not yet been independently verified. Of those signers holding the degree of PhD, 95% have now been independently verified.
 
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