Hexus review - does the ECS CrossFire board have VGA or not?

[haz]

Hey chaps,

Seeing as this place is ripe for discussion about 3D industry + website stuff, I thought I'd throw this one out there and see what people think. I'd go and post this as a question on the Hexus forums, but I'm actually IP-banned, for some bizarre reason.

Anyways, the question is concerning the new ECS CrossFire mainboard. Does it have VGA or no? And which version of the chipset is it using? And what version is being reviewed on Hexus?

ECS have announced that the final, shipping CrossFire board will use the RD400X chipset and WILL NOT have integrated graphics. Pre-production boards - one of which we currently have in the bit-tech labs to play with - DO have integrated graphics, with a VGA port on the back, and use the RD400 chipset (no X).

ECS sent me this, which I present just to back up the above paragraph:

I have just been informed by ECS that that mass production units of the PA1 Extreme will NOT have VGA port (the pre production sample you have has got embedded VGA with VGA port.)... The new version uses the RD400X, which doesn't have onboard VGA?

Now I know that ECS don't actually have finished production boards in Britain yet. So I was surprised to see the Hexus review of the board labelled as coming with the RD400X chipset, and without the VGA port listed in the spec. The review is written without any mention of a pre-production unit - all of these things rather indicating they had tested with a finished, retail board.

The pertinent Hexus review page is here: http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=3683&page=3

However, if you look at page 2 of that article, the picture of the board (the only one in the whole review) clearly has a VGA port in the top left.

Further, ECS mailed me thus:

They [Hexus] had the pre-production sample – just as you did.

To me, this raises a number of issues.

1) Should reviews of pre-production boards be conducted at all? What use is a review of something that will not ship to actual consumers?
2) Should reviews of pre-production boards be passed off as reviews of shipping products (with different specifications?)
3) Will the difference between the RD400 and RD400X make any difference to the performance of the product reviewed, both in terms of raw mainboard performance and CrossFire performance? If so, how reliable is the Hexus review as a performance benchmark?
4) How many other Hexus reviews are conducted on non-final product and passed off as legitimate retail reviews? Is this appropriate?
5) ECS doesn't advertise with bit-tech - we told them that we wouldn't be reviewing a board from them until it was a final, retail product. Has advertising convinced the Hexus.String-pullers to gloss over the minor issues? (NB: Spurious Speculation.)

Disclaimer: I'm sure everyone knows that most of the guys at Hexus hate my guts on both a personal and professional level. I still read their site, though. This isn't a dig - it's a query as to what the community thinks is appropriate testing methodology and editorial practice. I could have picked on anyone, but I happened to have the inside track on this particular occasion. I'm curious for my own benefit.

And please - can we keep this on topic, without it turning into a slanging match. I just really want the answers to the questions, not views as to whether 'bit-tech sux0rz' or 'hexus is teh pwnz0r'.

Cheers chaps.

Wil, bit-tech.

 

[Rys]

I don't hate your guts, personal or professional. Strange you say so. Hate is a strong word, shouldn't throw it around Anyway, this really wasn't the site to bring it up on, but since you posted I might as well clear it up for you.

The statement it's got RD400X is to reflect the shipping hardware and I go to pains not to say it has VGA in the article because it won't. We're happy to add in a notice that it was done on the last but one PCB revision though, with the latest revision BIOS, which should clear it up for you. And that's about it really, since I don't claim the board has VGA anywhere and the latest BIOS has performance the same as the final board will as far as I'm concerned

That they advertise with us has absolutely fuck all to do with it, since I write what I like with no financial concerns. Gotta pay the bills, but that really doesn't matter to me how PD and David do so.

Should have started this at Bit-Tech, dude.

 

[haz]

Hey Rys,

Thanks for replying.

Well, I can hardly start it on Hexus (banned - why is that?), and why would I start a thread about Hexus on bit-tech? Since B3D is a lot of 'industry', it seemed appropriate. Apologies to Dave and the rest of the board members if they're narced...

Is there really no performance difference between 400 and 400X, regardless of the BIOS? (Both in terms of mainboard and CrossFire performance?) I can quite believe it, but I'm just curious if you know first hand.

ECS mentioned to us that the final BIOS was quite a bit different in the shipping version. Have you seen that to compare? You mention 'as far as you're concerned', but I'm wondering to what detail that goes. There could be some cross-information here if ECS are befuddled.

As for the advertising thing, I know that you write what you want mate - however, we both know there've been plenty of occasions when PD 'edits' his slant in, or tacks opinions on the end.

At a time when the rest of the industry appears to be going in a 'subjective user experience' direction ([H], Toms, bit, etc) it seems strange for you guys to be going in the other direction. Doesn't passing off pre-production hardware as shipping rather go against the 'most trusted and reliable etc etc' moniker you guys have?

I guess the crux is that, to be honest, it just seems odd to me to be 'going to pains', as you put it, to review a board as shipping hardware when the version you're reviewing isn't shipping hardware. Surely you'd just... review the shipping hardware?

 

[Dave Baumann]

You know, I'm not sure whether ATI have or haven't produced a version of the Intel chipset without the integrated VGA - does the shipping version still use the same silicon, just without its VGA enabled?

 

[Rys]

Hey Rys,

Thanks for replying.

Well, I can hardly start it on Hexus (banned - why is that?), and why would I start a thread about Hexus on bit-tech? Since B3D is a lot of 'industry', it seemed appropriate. Apologies to Dave and the rest of the board members if they're narced...

I honestly don't know why you are (truly), so I can't comment. Ask PD? And I thought the thread wasn't about HEXUS as such, but about a general problem and we were the example to make a point? Therefore it'd have been fine on Bit-Tech, surely? Doesn't matter though, this _is_ a decent place for it.

Is there really no performance difference between 400 and 400X, regardless of the BIOS? (Both in terms of mainboard and CrossFire performance?) I can quite believe it, but I'm just curious if you know first hand.

There isn't when you don't enable the VGA core, although I must say that's as far as I'm aware (although I make an educated statement when I say so, obviously).

ECS mentioned to us that the final BIOS was quite a bit different in the shipping version. Have you seen that to compare? You mention 'as far as you're concerned', but I'm wondering to what detail that goes. There could be some cross-information here if ECS are befuddled.

.
Quite a bit different in what way? Performance or features (or both, or something else) ? As you can see from the review, measured performance is as befits a P4 product (from a platform perspective at least) and I was distinctly led to believe the BIOS would represent what the retail product would be like. I tested that to be so.

As for the advertising thing, I know that you write what you want mate - however, we both know there've been plenty of occasions when PD 'edits' his slant in, or tacks opinions on the end.

That's what Afterburner is for (although we currently don't make it clear enough what the concept is all about). He doesn't edits anything in, only places marked afterburner pieces at the end.

At a time when the rest of the industry appears to be going in a 'subjective user experience' direction ([H], Toms, bit, etc) it seems strange for you guys to be going in the other direction. Doesn't passing off pre-production hardware as shipping rather go against the 'most trusted and reliable etc etc' moniker you guys have?

I made a judgement that the hardware as presented was representative of a retail product (which I still maintain). My mistake was not making it clear I was reviewing it as retail, but with pre-production hardware, as I did here. We'll add the same note in at some point today, and that's my personal mistake (not anyone else at HEXUS, since I'm my own editor for stuff like that).

I guess the crux is that, to be honest, it just seems odd to me to be 'going to pains', as you put it, to review a board as shipping hardware when the version you're reviewing isn't shipping hardware. Surely you'd just... review the shipping hardware?

Sure, it can be seen that way. But as long as you make it clear what you're evaluating (as I did with the EQS, and a recent piece on Avivo, to name a couple) there should be no confusion and no misunderstanding.

Again, my mistake entirely for not disclaiming the article (as I thought I'd done actually, hilariously).

 

[haz]

OK, that makes sense. It's my viewpoint that pre-production hardware, unless it's a 'first-look / tech-preview' type feature is pretty useless, but that's your call. I agree that you guys need a disclaimer in there.

As for the BIOS, performance and stability were mentioned as tweaks in the final version. I guess we'll have to wait for the final version to ship so we can find out. Apparently I have one on way!

Dave, the VGA header: I honestly don't know. It will be interesting to see if the pinouts are still there, or if the BIOS is prone to reflashing.

 

[Rys]

OK, that makes sense. It's my viewpoint that pre-production hardware, unless it's a 'first-look / tech-preview' type feature is pretty useless, but that's your call. I agree that you guys need a disclaimer in there.

As for the BIOS, performance and stability were mentioned as tweaks in the final version. I guess we'll have to wait for the final version to ship so we can find out. Apparently I have one on way!

Dave, the VGA header: I honestly don't know. It will be interesting to see if the pinouts are still there, or if the BIOS is prone to reflashing.

Take the heatsink off the PA1 final retail when you get it. Should give you the info you seek, but I think Dave's right (at least for just now). As for the BIOS changes, I look forward to your article and if we need to re-review I'm sure we will. That's the beauty of ze web