Finalizing My Decision - Pentium D 830 vs. P4 3.6ghz

Coola

Newcomer
Ok I know I've posted a lot about intel processors and you guys have given me a lot of feedback which I take directly into my decision. And now im finalizing it by getting a scenario together to see which processor would work better. Here it is:

Pentium D 830 (3.0ghz)

vs.

Pentium 4 3.6 ghz with HT

for Multitasking

+ + + + +
MSN Explorer 9 with 10 windows - all showing high graphics
IE - 5 windows open - all showing high graphics
MSN Messenger 7.0 with 10 conversations running - emoticons included
Photoshop 7.0 running
Windows Media Player 9 runing
Flash MX 2004 running
Ad Aware Personal SE*
MS Paint running
Limewire PRO running
Kazaa Lite running
Windows Movie Maker 2.0*
Microsoft Office 2003 running
Microsoft Antispyware*
Microsoft Power Point 2003 running
Virus Scan running in the backgroun
+ + + + +

*just added

With that scenario, which CPU would I benefit from the most?[/b]
 
With all the background stuff, The PD 830 is going to be your best bet. There's no way anti-virus, 2 file sharing procs AND photoshop in the background wil only take up 600 MHz. By the by, why not get the 820? I think that's gotta be the best bang/buck in the Intel camp ATM.
 
I thought the only difference between the 820 and 830 was like $70?

Also - the HT technology, doesn't that somehow mimick another processor or something?

And right now I have a Intel Celeron 2.0ghz so when purchasing a new processor I like to upgrade at least one full ghz, just to make myself feel good inside.
 
I thought only the EE PD's had HyperThreading, but I could be wrong. Anyways, having two HT cores will give you "4" CPU's (2 physical, 2 logical), which would be ultra cool, but overkill for anything short of a google-trafficed server. I agree with you in the "upgrade a whole GHz", that sort of mindshare is always needed.

EDIT: I'm not wrong, only the 840 EE has HT. But still, I had a 3.0c for a long time, and it'd be great to have two of those running SMP :p.
 
I meant the p4 with the ht technology


ht + 600mhz vs. p4 3.0ghz (no ht) [which is basically half the core of a pd 830]

i read on anandtech or tomshardware that the dual core is better than ht overall, but im not sure on what terms.
 
Coola said:
i read on anandtech or tomshardware that the dual core is better than ht overall, but im not sure on what terms.

HT mimics a second processor without really having the extra resources to back it up. It works sometimes, but not as well as a real cpu1. Get the 830.
 
Get the P-D. HT just *mimicks* another CPU. It's not as good as having another physical CPU core, like the P-D series.

I haven't used filesharing for a long time, but LimeWire and Kazaa on a college pipe will probably appreciate the extra core, and maybe an NCQ HD.

In your last thread, you said the price diff b/w the 820 and 830 was $130. Even if it's now just $70, I'd still lean toward putting that money toward more RAM or an extra HD or a better monitor or something more useful, assuming the 820 can do everything you want it to. (I'm still thinking about WMV HD decoding for which MS recommends 3GHz, but I believe dual core or at least a recent 3D card would make the 2.8GHz 820 fast enough.)
 
As fars as Ram i've settled upon 1GB and if that isn't sufficient enough i'll upgrade.

The dell widescreen monitor will be a VAST improvement over this lame CRT crap I have now, but that will be a little further down the road.

And well on the HD front I'm still unsure about Raid 0, Raid 1 stuff.

To put into perspective, the current pc i have now goes like this:

Windows XP Home Edition
2.0ghz Celeron
3D Xtreme Graphics (pisses me off)
40GB hd
768 Ram

so compared to that this:

Windows Media Center 2005 (i heard dual cores work better on xp pro??)
3.0ghz P-D
128MB PCI Expressâ„¢ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeonâ„¢ X300 SE
80GB or 160GB [not sure yet]
1GB Ram

I *hope* that is a significant step up.
 
XP pro or home gives no difference with dual cores, or hyperthreading or such. It's only if you have two CPU sockets on your mobo that you can't use XP home if you want to use both CPUs.

Also, I'd suggest you forget raid0, as it doubles the risk of disk failure and has very little real-world impact on performance. Raid1 is mirroring I think, and that could be useful I guess if you have some really critical data you need to keep secure. It would halve your available disk space though (saving all data in identical copies to two harddrives). Depending on the raid implementation (hardware acceleration vs. software only) it might also mean a slight performance impact, but probably not noticeable as long as you don't run a highly loaded fileserver or such. :) Particulary not on a dual-core system either I might add.

Good luck with your new system man, I hope you'll be happy with it! :)
 
alright thanks for the windows tip, im going to slide with mc 05 then

and about raid - dell confuses me

RAID 0

High performance and capacity for storage intensive applications

Digital Video & Audio

Photoshop and photo-editing applications

Publishing, Graphics

Gaming applications

Multi-tasking

Get the most out of your computer's performance

RAID 1

Create failsafe storage for all your important data while increasing read performance


Secure Data

Easiest system recovery

Any application where data is important and the storage system is at risk for failure

Important data, such as financial records/small business, medical files

Data protection

Protect the data that's important to you
+++

Just from that it gives me the impression Raid 0 is better since it lists multitasking. But your right, just striping doesn't seem secure enough.
 
Companies like to tout the performance increase raid0 gives (double the transfer rates, yay!), but fact is, disk I/O is almost never transfer rate limited, but rather access time limited. And there, raid0 gives almost zero to very little benefit, so the net performance gain in the real world is very weak. I myself would say it doesn't outweigh the doubled chance of failure.
 
Guden Oden said:
Companies like to tout the performance increase raid0 gives (double the transfer rates, yay!), but fact is, disk I/O is almost never transfer rate limited, but rather access time limited. And there, raid0 gives almost zero to very little benefit, so the net performance gain in the real world is very weak. I myself would say it doesn't outweigh the doubled chance of failure.

I mostly agree with you, but there are real uses for Raid-0 (as opposed to "hey, look at me!") and video editing is one of them. I am, of course, talking about real video editing here, where you are working with 200GB+ of vidoe data that must be processed. This is what amounts to a very long sequential read and access times are not really part of the equation. However, depending on how you work, you can live without RAID/a fast drive by making the processor(s) the bottleneck.

RAID-0 might be a viable solution for this type of task because the data spends relatively little time on the hard disk. Typically you would have a workstation with one or two RAID-0 arrays and the system disk separated and un-Raided. This allows you to quickly pull data streams from one array and save to another. There is still the problem of reads being faster than writes so you can never have a perfectly balanced system.

"Lone Wolf" video manipulation and editing may not benefit as greatly because you can typically go from raw footage to final product in one sweep without the need for several slightly altered versions (like just a light balancing pass or color correction). In this scenario you are processing so much in a single pass that the CPU becomes the bottleneck and drive speed won't matter and raid-0 would only be a liability (but raid-JBOD might be useful to increase capacity of a 'single drive/partition')

Overall, I don't recommend raid-0 as a frivolous feature. Raid-1 might be good if you are scrared of losing data, but even then there are other options for backup, even if they may be more laborious. Raid-0 as sold today at low prices is very gimmicky. If you are serious about it you buy a Raid card at $1,000 and drives for as much, making the I in Raid less than realistic at consumer prices (the I can mean inexpensive, but is sometimes taken to mean independent).

Guden mentioned access times and here the cheap onboard (soft) solutions can actually hurt performance. The two drives must be synchronized for the magic to happen and, if anything, this will probably hurt your access times as you are now dependent on two landing zones instead of one.

Lastly, Raid can always be added at a later stage. Remember, you don't need your system drive raid-0ed. The real benefit would be with one or two raid-0 scratch disks to temporarily keep the data on (I don't mean scratch as only virtual memory or paging, but as a temporary space for any data; your raw video). People are sold things based on the technology and, especially, the acronyms alone, but if you want a real solution you would do well to back off and see the need grow so you know exactly what components you need. You might be better off with two 74GB 10K RPM drives or maybe you tend to work with uncompressed (or Huffyuv) and be better served with slightly slower drives of 400GB each.
 
The only data I would be pissed at losing are perhaps rare photo's or word docments that i've spent entire nights working on. And maybe my music library I've worked so hard to build back up ever since my hard drive crashed about a year or so ago.

Photo's I believe I can store online somewhere, documents can be stored in online e-mail storage but mp3 files have nowhere to go. Which is why i may end up buying an an ipod when I really don't done need one.

I would like to thank you guys for allowing me to finalize my deicision. I am going to go with the 830 setup and I guess a 80 or 160gb hd would be sufficient enough for myself (i currently have a 40gb comp and have 11gb left after 3 years of use)
 
May I suggest an internal flash-card reader to store your most critical stuff? Dell offers one of the typical varieties with four slots, then you buy a large flashrom card of a name brand such as Kingston for example and transfer over the files. Flashroms aren't good for scratch data that changes constantly (such as a swap file, or internet cache), but for long-term storage, it's much better suited since there's no moving parts that can fail. Modern flash memories are designed for 100k to a million rewrites per bit, so it's really quite difficult to wear them out when used for archiving.

Of course, an external harddrive connected to either USB or firewire could work too; 2.5" varieties typically spin down when they're idle and will thusly not wear constantly, and those enclosures tend to be very small and handy and will easily slip into a pocket if you need to go someplace. Most, if not all MP3 players, both flash-based and with harddrives, also work as USB storage devices so you could go this route too if you want and have a supply of music as well for a long boring trip somewhere or something... :)
 
I'm pretty sure I explained RAID 0 and 1 in your previous thread.

Again, 0 makes multiple HDs look like one big one to the OS. What happens is data is stripes across multiple drives, so think of it as the first layer of an onion is stored on one drive, the second on another, and so on. It's vulnerable because if just one HD fails, you lose all your data, because the OS needs all the "layers" (stripes) for valid data.

1 mirrors the data on one drive to another, so if one HD fails, you still have all your data on the second HD. All you do is pull out the failed HD, install a new one, and the RAID array rebuilds itself by copying the old HD onto the new, and you're back to a mirrored array.

Music you could probably store on a couple of (good quality!) DVD+/-R(W)s. Obviously an external HD is the easiest method of backing up, but a HD (even a 2.5", laptop HD) is probably still less reliable than regular DVD backups (in which you have two or three rotating rewritable sets, so even if you scratch one DVD, you have more copies). Docs you can backup onto a DVD, and also onto a USB flash drive for convenience. Pics are DVD material, again with rotating sets.

By rotating sets I mean you backup to set A in July, set B in Aug., C in Sept., then to A in Oct., B in Nov., etc.. Or just back up to write-once DVDs, and buy a big CaseLogic case to hold em all.

This is all pointless if you don't buy quality (re)writeable DVDs. The cheap stuff will have more errors right off the bat, and probably won't last more than a year or two (as I've discovered with cheap CD-Rs).

If you're pinching pennies, I'd put that $70 toward a backup solution, be it an extra 80GB HD for RAID 1 (along with a UPS) or an external 2.5" HD (get one with dual USB/Firewire connections, just in case). But I'm guessing money isn't exactly tight, so spend some on a good backup solution.
 
I think you've just about convinced me to opt for a Raid 1 drive

that seems a lot more secure than Raid 0.. Raid 0 sounds like a joke to me
 
Coola said:
Raid 0 sounds like a joke to me

Raid-0 is not a joke, you just have to know where to use it. It is not meant for the whole system. It is useful if you want to pump data fast. Otherwise you can use JBOD (Just a Bunch of Disks) mode to get a similar effect of combining drives, but without the speed increase.

You will read about many casual users online sporting raid-0, but this is mostly for silly bragging rights. The same type of people who format their hard disk to install a new display driver (no offense to you who do!). For video production you might find it useful because you work with huge data.

Consider Raid-1 but also look here for other Raid configurations.

PS. Raid 1 is pretty silly for a typical dekstop/workstation. Might as well keep a drive as a separate backup device then.
 
Well, as others have said, RAID 0 isn't meant for data security. It seems mainly meant for ease of use and speed, so you wouldn't keep critical data on it without a backup elsewhere.

Now that you know you're buying a PC, keep an eye on CompUSA, BestBuy, CircuitCity, Staples, OfficeDepot, and OfficeMax ads for low prices on a UPS after rebate. I seem to be OK with a 550VA with an XP2400+ and 19" CRT, but you may well need a higher-rated one for a Pentium (say, 700 to 900VA). You probably won't need a higher-rated one if Dell's power supplies have active power factor correction (PFC), but I'm guessing they (like most PSUs sold in America) don't. For a point of reference, I bought my APC and Belkin basic 500VA UPSs for about $15 each after rebates. I think I've seen 700 or even 900VA versions for not much more, also after rebates.
 
I run my fully loaded (apart from 1 free PCIe slot) P4 3GHz system on a 500VA APC UPS along with LCD monitor, ADSL modem, router and a switch (all three are DLink units). It lasts for about 7 minutes on battery power with light windows use and CPU near idle. Fully loaded running 3D games, about 4 minutes. It was close to nine minutes before I hooked up the networking gear too so that I could surf with the power out.
 
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