Yeah, in the recent months one if the devs discussed that. They said they'd worked on it for atleast least 4 months. The hardware wasn't a problem. The only reason they stopped is cause sega had backed out of the business.
Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that game/effect? *DC tech retrospective *spawn
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davis.anthony
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The hardware wasn't a problem for a version of GTA3, it was for the version we ultimately got.
And that's ultimately the point, when we say "can DC handle this-that game" - In what way do we mean 'handle' it?
The exact same? With minor downgrades? With a cut frame rate? - At what point do we say "No it can't handle it"
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witcher 3 could be ported to the switch
GRID Legends could be ported to the Meta Quest 2
Resident Evil was ported to the Gameboy color.
But at what cost graphically ?
Everything is possible, does everything have to be made ? Maybe not if it compromises the initial vision of the devs too much.
GRID Legends could be ported to the Meta Quest 2
Resident Evil was ported to the Gameboy color.
But at what cost graphically ?
Everything is possible, does everything have to be made ? Maybe not if it compromises the initial vision of the devs too much.
Agreed, but it wouldn't be that costly to DC. They're the same generation after all. Also, witcher 3 is considered an incredible port to switch, lol.
Cloofoofoo
Regular
With that I agree with you . Actually being multi plat simultaneously with the PS2 actually is good for the dc. The nice interviews / articles of the soul reaver 2 that they actually compared ps2 performance to DC puts it into perspective. They knew the PS2 could outperform the Dreamcast but didn't want to sacrifice on graphics too much, so what did they do? They optimized dc to the point" they felt" they were pushing the Dreamcast very hard just to be able to keep up with the PS2 version in every category up to that point. They admitted in the future ps2 had more room to grow but they were quite pleased with dc performance.
Going back to doa2. I seem to recall tecmo had magazine interviews about the dead or alive 2 being ported to PS2 and that Dreamcast would never have enough memory to handle the new stages and the old expanded stages or even the new higher polygon costumes( kasumi is the most noticable) . What happened down the line ? They back ported almost all PS2 costumes and while they didn't add the new stages they added new segments to existing stages( what happened to not having enough memory? Mind you dc keeps 2 stages in memory and streams).
To a point multi plat on DC with equal resources distributed between both platforms would only had given good results , especially with the improvement in the tools that were starting to kick in.
davis.anthony
Veteran
Well as you said, they didn't add the new stages, so clearly it didn't have enough memory.
The DC version of Unreal Tournament also has some of the larger maps removed due to lack of RAM.
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Except basically esppiral is basically resident evil 4 stages( he added the whole freaking first village ) , soul Calibur 2 , Xbox /3ds stages of DOA games to doa2. How's that for not enough memory. They obviously wanted to keep some things exclusive. They even left traces of cutscene stage that were only viewable on PS2 in DC disk.
Also the added segments take more memory since they are mini stages on their own so how the heck does you argument even work?
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davis.anthony
Veteran
I really wish you would stop using user mods as a means of evidence, the RE4 stage is extremely basic looking and isn't something to be proud of.
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Which they aren't. I extracted those. Now all the sudden they are basic? Even the pc/PS2 version they are about 30k to 50k triangles. Doa2 was designed with stages around 10k to 20k In mind. It's a miracle they even run , let alone at a good frame rate. I know the 3ds stages run at the high end of doa2 numbers and slightly over and handles it like a champ. These are actually good stress test to be honest. It wasn't designed to run these strenuous meshes but does so .
davis.anthony
Veteran
Yes, this is not visually impressive, it's also not running on actual DC hardware so it's useless as evidence of anything DC can actually do.
The first person Code Veronica mod looks awesome though.
...While running particles, lighting, shadows, more onscreen characters, more animation.....etc.
DC is having to do way less work than what PS2 is doing in that actual scene in RE4.
The fact that it does suggests otherwise and there was/is quite a large amount of headroom in the engine and not that DC has a secret switch. Though I'm sure the emulation hardware helps just a tad.
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Cloofoofoo
Regular
I am pointing out that all the sudden your statement of not enough ram so the other stages weren't added doesn't hold up. Since these are much denser than the missing stages( possibly even more textures as well) . And can eat more memory in different way like needed more vram for bigger vertex buffers due to the denser stages and chewing through more CPU due to more tnl calculating because of the denser stages. Yet these run. Not comparing to re4. though poly by poly comparison under these numbers they might be about the same for the scene lol( since you forgot each character is 9k/10K here ) for pc version
Not saying it has a switch but at its base it's a naomilib game, even an apples to apples comparison between fighting games running on the same API the disparity is huge( fighting vipers 2 the entire scene= 1 doa2 character , vf3 enough said especially since both games were cutdown even). It's less about headroom and more of the effects of optimization and catering to dc specifically.
davis.anthony
Veteran
Yes it does.
And also save some memory by not having the proper sound effects, background animations, particles....etc...
I'm not surprised they run, they're basic as shit.
These user added levels don't even have any collision for crying out loud, is collision free in terms of memory and CPU cost?
PS2 version has way, way more models on character models on screen (not to mention way more level props)
Until you can port one of the larger PS2 stages over, complete with all the unique sounds, animations, logic, collisions (etc) for that specific stage, to replicate the actual memory and processing load PS2 deals with, then they don't prove anything in regards to DC capabilities vs handling PS2 stages as DC is having to do a lot less.
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Regarding RAM, the PS2 had 32MB main ram vs the Dreamcast's 16, but the DC stored its texture data in video ram and not main ram. IIRC GTA 3 used a lot of 4bpp CLUTS, the equivalent (usually superior) format on Dreamcast was 2bpp VQ.
In a hypothetical case where PS2 had a 10MB of CLUTs in main ram for the next few frames, DC might need to have none while having the same or better overall texture quality. This would leave around 22MB vs 16MB main ram free.
In a case where PS2 was only using 4MB of main ram for textures and they were again 4pp CLUTs, the main ram situation would be different with the DC able to have much better textures but being a much greater 12MB behind on main ram. Though with such a small amount of memory used for textures and them being mostly 4pp CLUTs, the PS2 game would look pretty awful.
PS2 optical drive is a lot faster though. GTA3 wasn't a big game (500MB install stated in the minimum specs for the original Steam release) and so optical transfer rates might not have been that high. On the other hand, if they were very bursty, they may well have been a problem.
the DC had more than enough VRAM for the textures and to push out the basic geometry. But thats all that it is there besides the two DOA characters in the above video.
Everything else that makes Resi 4 what it is, is missing.
There are none of the inyteractive objects in the environment, no animations, none of the effects, none of the lighting, and in general none of the data that would require space from the main RAM.
Hence why the modded DOA2 with resi 4's stage is 60fps whereas the actual game is 30fps on PS2.
These examples cant serve as good examples. Certainly with enough downgrades and adjustments almost all PS2 games are possible but at what cost and what kind of experience?
I am sure there are many 30fps games on the DC where you could use just the basic environments to mod in to DOA2 and run at better framerates too.
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davis.anthony
Veteran
And on DC where would all the animation, sounds, physics, AI...etc....etc.... live?
There's more to graphics than just textures, and iirc geometry was written straight in to a register on PS2's GS, thus saving memory?
ISO size for GTA3 on PS2 appears to be over 1GB.
Cloofoofoo
Regular
How is collision free if it's still using collision mesh of a different stage ( yes this still takes memory) , and still using ik on the characters, still doing hair and cloth sim . Still 2 directional lights. Physics, collision. So it's still eating up cpu for all these things.
Well let's look at it this way , resi4 does have more characters on screen but I am just point out triangle for triangle it's likely to be about the same as 2 doa2 characters. Zombies at full resolution are 1200 triangles( I posted resident evil 4 numbers before) and lets not even mention the 700 triangle lods for when they mid to far. Leon is 5000. Leon and let's say around 10 zombies at full res is like around 17,000 triangles and 2 doa characters range from 16k to 20k on screen( add the stupid re4 stage) . I was just pointing out that likely the raw figure isn't actually that far away from each other. And that's at 60 fps cut the fps in half and your giving the DC a world of headroom more for the more complicated things.
davis.anthony
Veteran
Unless that different stage is the exact same then the collision, and thus it's cost, won't be the same,
And yet it's still missing loads of things.
But does it have the memory for those more complicated things
Cloofoofoo
Regular
But that's my point , it's still running doa2 logic on top of a stage with a figure that's supposed to be " impossible" according to some people. At 60 fps at that. Give the dc 30 fps at this level optimization you might just have a version that would resemble the lesser PC version.( 2007). How is that unplayable? Everything halved from gc and suddenly it's unplayable? By extension would that make the PS2 version unplayable? I am just asking , if it made something that resembled the pc version ( lack of light , messed up vertex colors , missing framebuffer effects and 30 fps but same meshes as PS2.) Would that be the worst thing ever?
The collision is still there, it just doesn't match the assets cause @EsppiraK is using a premade stages collision. He's said that a couple of times. As far as the "larger levels" there's only one (if you count it). The vast and empty desert stage. Theres literally nothing in that stage that says dc can't do it. Also, DC never got an update to include them after hardcore.
davis.anthony
Veteran
So it's not a true representation of the actual collision required for that stage, and thus not a true representation of the processing and memory load the stage actually has then.
Good to know.