http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1156821,00.html
transparency - transparency is what this government needs. heh... Blair should do the honourable thing now and resign.
Claire Short
Blair
Transcript: Clare Short on Today
Full text of John Humphrys' interview with Clare Short on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, February 26 2004
Thursday February 26, 2004
John Humphrys: What do you make of it all [the dropping of charges against Katherine Gun]?
Clare Short: Well I think it centres on the attorney general's advice that war was legal and resolution 1441, which was published, as a matter of fact, but was very, very odd. The more I think about it the more fishy I feel it was. It came very, very late, he came to the cabinet the day Robin Cook resigned and sat in Robin's seat; two sides of A4; no discussion permitted. We know already that the Foreign Office legal advisers had disagreed and one of them had said there was no authority for war. The Liberals have been pressing for the brief on the basis of which he said there was authority for war, there's a question of whether the exaggeration of the threat and the immediacy of the threat from any possible biological or chemical weapons in Iraq was part of the brief for the attorney general so that he would give the legal authority. So my own suspicion is that the attorney has stopped the prosecution because part of her [Gun's] defence would was to question legality and put his advice in the public domain again and there was something fishy about the way in which he said the war was legal.
JH: What this memo showed - the secret memo that Katherine Gun disclosed - what it showed was pressure from the United States on other countries to get support for a second UN resolution and spying indeed on those countries. Do you believe that Britain, our government, might have been involved in that with the United States?
CS: Well there was enormous ... on a second resolution, of course it's clear now there was a date for war so they didn't mean Blix do his job and then come to a second resolution if need be, but they were going to war anyway and they were going to bully and pressurise countries to vote for it. I mean enormous pressure was brought to bear, Valerie Amos, Lady Amos, went round Africa with people from our intelligence services trying to press them. I had to make sure that we didn't promise the misuse of aid in a way that would be illegal.
JH: Did you? Was it being suggested then?
CS: There was worry about her brief and making sure that there was no such suggestion because it would have been a breach of the law. Britain also ...
JH: But did someone suggest, sorry can I just question you on that for a second. Did someone suggest that might have been the right strategy?
CS: We were worried that was going to be done and went to some trouble to make sure her briefing made it clear that that could not legally be done. I Mean the UK in this time was also spying on Kofi Annan's office and getting reports from him about what was going on. The US was pressing Chile and Mexico, enormous pressures were brought to bear - I mean what was remarkable was that these countries didn't break. And if you remember, the other part of the context is we were then all deceived about the French position and told the French had said they would veto any second resolution, which wasn't true, we now know. Chirac had said we veto now because Blix needs his time but if Blix failed then of course we would vote with others to authorise military action
JH: Pressure is one thing, you expect that I suppose, spinning is another thing - you expect that I suppose, spying, spying in the United Nations is something quite different isn't it?
CS: Well indeed, but these things are done. And in the case of Kofi's office it's been done for some time.
JH: Let me repeat the question then, do you believe Britain has been involved in it?
CS: Well I know, I have seen transcripts of Kofi Annan's conversations.
Indeed, I have had conversations with Kofi in the run-up to war thinking 'Oh dear, there will be a transcript of this and people will see what he and I are saying'.
JH: So in other words British spies - let's be very clear about this in case I'm misunderstanding you - British spies have been instructed to carry out operations inside the United Nations on people like Kofi Annan?
CS: Yes, absolutely.
JH: Did you know about this when you were in government?
CS: Absolutely, I read some of the transcripts of the accounts of his conversations.
JH: Is this legal?
CS: I don't know, I presume so. It is odd, but I don't know about the legalities. But the major issue here is the legal authority for war and whether the attorney general had to be persuaded at the last minute - against the advice of one of the Foreign Office legal advisers, who then resigned - hat he could give legal authority for war and whether there had to be an exaggeration of the threat of the use of chemical and biological weapons to persuade him that there was legal authority - that's the big question.
JH: What should happen now?
CS: I think the good old British democracy should keep scrutinising and pressing to get the truth out.
JH: How? There's been a lot of it and a lot of people are beginning to say look we've heard it all, we've had the war let's put it behind us, Tony Blair certainly wants to put it behind us.
CS: Yes, but the tragedy is that Iraq is a disastrous mess. Ten thousand Iraqis have died, American troops are dying, some of our troops have died, the Middle East is more angry than ever.
I'm afraid that the sort of deceit on the route to war was linked to the lack of preparation for afterwards and the chaos and suffering that continues, so it won't go away, will it?
transparency - transparency is what this government needs. heh... Blair should do the honourable thing now and resign.
Claire Short
