Card Upgrade questions

M

mtzlblk

Newcomer
Hey,

I have been trying to research what card to buy, but there is so much f**ing info that I have not been able to come to a decision and I'm not sure which way to go.

PC Spex:
Dual-processor: 3.2 GH HT
2 GB RAM
AGP 4x/8x
RADEON 9200 Pro, in conjunction with some kind of connexant blackbird/Philips TV tuner that shows up in device manager as a 9200 other
Running Media Center 2005, but will be dual botting that to Vista beta (one reason for the card upgrade).

I use the PC to watch, record and stream TV, capture and edit hi-res video from mini-DV, as well as play some games, although that isn't a primary use so i am okay if that isn't too blazing.

Should I buy:
1. The fastest AGP card I can find and couple it with the current TV tuner card?
--Will the fastest gaming/graphics card necessarily be the best in terms of capturing and working with video?
--Will it work with Media Center to do all the TV stuff in conjunction with a/any tuner card, or do need a specialixed card (see number 3 below)?
--Would I be better off with the fastest Radeon AGP card I can find in the hopes that it will be more compatible with the tuner piece/drivers?

3. Get rid of both the 9200 and the tuner and replace with a top end card/tuner combo?
--Will this get me better video
--Any recommendations on the best/fastest version between Radeon, NVidia...anyone else?

Thanks so much for your your help.

-Steve
 
Sounds like AIW to me. This is the best in AGP, price isnt too too bad unless you feel like replacing your entire computer for PCI Express. Its a perfectly capable card.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=3592857&CartID=done&nextloc=

Thats more of a upper mid-end gaming card. If you really dont care about graphics and all that then something like

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102581
or
http://www.costcentral.com/proddetail/ATI_ALL_IN_WONDER_9800_PRO/100713100/C02004/froogle/
would be fine though the 9600 is not a huge huge leap over your current 9200 in terms of gaming performance. The 9800 would be a substantial improvment and the X800XT a very large improvment (X800XT is 2x faster then 9800Pro itself which is 2x faster then 9600 and the 9600 is problably 3x faster then a 9200). I'm not sure of your priorities so a card with everything you need for video may be more important then gaming performance. If you plan on playing hot new titles released within the last year and turning up any IQ settings you really need a 9800 or greater.

Make sure to check the compatibility and capability differences here:
http://apps.ati.com/ATIcompare/

Just check off

ALL-IN-WONDER 9600
ALL-IN-WONDER X800 XT
ALL-IN-WONDER 9800 PRO

and go.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Get a 9700/9800 pro AIW or the X800 AIW if you can afford it, very nice cards.

I'll argue that the 9600 is a bit of a better step up than SC said it is from the 9200, but I have a very dim view of the 9200 and have had great luck with a 9600 pro AIW. :)

ATi's new line-up of 550/650 tv chipsets though are seriously worth looking into, a much better picture by far. :)
 
except the card i linked isnt a 9600 Pro, the clocks are substantially lower as its based off the Vanilla version. 325/400 vs 200/325
 
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Im not sure but I think the new 650 pro ATI TV cards have comb filltering now. This should give a bertter image/video. The AIW 9600,9800, and up will have a Theater 200 on it and it takes some of the encoding/decoding off the CPU and helps with a higher frame rate.
 
Upgrade Update

Thanks for all the info, very helpful.

I actually forgot that I had a TV Wonder Elite with the 550 chip sitting in another PC disabled. I have put that in the PC in the TV and picture is indeed much better and CPU utilization is a lot lower. The 550 chip actually does have 3D comb filtering, but the 650 has 'motion adaptive' comb filtering, whatever that means. It looks like the also 650 adds:
-Avivo enabled for better quality
-more support for worldwide standards
-better digital TV support
-Vista certified.

That done, I am free to buy whatever AGP card I want to speed up the graphics. Given the sort of closed nature of Media Center PCs, I was worried that swapping in a new Tuner Accelerator pair would cause it to puke. not so. I actually left the old tuner in there disabled, but if I need to I can enable it to record one show while I watch the other.
 
mtzlblk said:
I actually forgot that I had a TV Wonder Elite with the 550 chip sitting in another PC disabled. I have put that in the PC in the TV and picture is indeed much better and CPU utilization is a lot lower. The 550 chip actually does have 3D comb filtering, but the 650 has 'motion adaptive' comb filtering, whatever that means. It looks like the also 650 adds:
-Avivo enabled for better quality
-more support for worldwide standards
-better digital TV support
-Vista certified.
Click to expand...
Watch out when/if you install a video card with VIVO features, if you install the VIVO WMD drivers it'll wipe out your 550's nifty "pause" feature.

I can't tell you the headaches I went thru until I finally figured that one out, but now I have no problems switching cards and not losing my precious "pause" feature. :)

(I always get interrupted watching something being a Mr.Mom, being able to pause live TV has allowed me to actually start to watch it again....it's like a miracle to me!)

I'll be glad to help you out if you have any problems with that after you decide/get whatever card. :)

BTW-As Snipe said, give us your min/max budget and we'll give you recomendations. Oh, screw that...just tell us the max since that's what we'll all shoot for anyways. ;)
 
Next questions then

1. what is the fastest AGP card in the $300-400 range.

-ATI x1600 Pro AGP 512 MB
-Radeon X800XL 8x AGP, 256MB DDR
-GeForce 6800 Ultra Video Card, 8x AGP, 256MB DDR3
-GeForce 7800 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 256MB GDDR3

And one more question..some of these need to hook directly to the power supply. If I am on a standard power supply, which i belive to be a 240, do I REALLY need to upgrade that to a 300 or more? I will have the tuner, one regular drive, a 250 GB SATA drive (soon to be two), dual processors, and all the usual assortment of audio and whatnot. Often hook cameras and music devices up as well.

What happens if the system is underpowered, does it slow down or go blank?

thanks again for your help.
 
mtzlblk said:
1. what is the fastest AGP card in the $300-400 range.

-ATI x1600 Pro AGP 512 MB
-Radeon X800XL 8x AGP, 256MB DDR
-GeForce 6800 Ultra Video Card, 8x AGP, 256MB DDR3
-GeForce 7800 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 256MB GDDR3

And one more question..some of these need to hook directly to the power supply. If I am on a standard power supply, which i belive to be a 240, do I REALLY need to upgrade that to a 300 or more? I will have the tuner, one regular drive, a 250 GB SATA drive (soon to be two), dual processors, and all the usual assortment of audio and whatnot. Often hook cameras and music devices up as well.

What happens if the system is underpowered, does it slow down or go blank?

thanks again for your help.
Click to expand...

You will need a new PSU. What you have is to small. A good 400W or higher is what you will need with a high end AGP card. Most high end AGP cards need 10amps on the +12V rail and that mostly starts at the 400W range. There many PSU out there with low prices and thats the one to not buy. For a good 400W PSU, you will spend around $50.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104953
Fortron make very good PSU with low noise.

For the Video card, is fan nosie a problem or not. There are powerful AGP cards out there but some have nosie coolers on them. A 7800GS are the fastest AGP cards out there for AGP but they do kick out a lot of heat and nosie. Some cards use 2 slots because of a big cooler and that may or may not be a problem. I would suggest a duel slot cooler if the slot below the AGP slot is not being used. The duel slot will cool better and produce less nosie if done right. The duel slot cooler on the ATI X850 and Nvidia 6800 Ultra make a lot of noise but ons with the Artic cooler do a great job with little noise.
 
:LOL:

That is a sweet power supply, don't be fooled by it's simple looks. I just got one a while back and it's really nice.

Rys recomended it to me, not surprised to see Snipe recomend the same one...just sort of thought it funny.
 
Replies and (alas) more questions

First of all, thanks for all the help. You guys the bomb. If you ever need any help designing systems to stream live TV to a cell phone, i'm on it ; )

Thanks thanks for the recommendation on the power supply. I will go with that. Are they pretty standard in terms of fit in the case? I haven't replaced one of these before, I'm assuming the connections are pretty standard and that it should just mount in the current space alotted, perhaps with some funky bolt job, but as long as it stays put.

I just looked and I actually have a 200W PSU (240 max?), so I'm probably already under wanter with the dual processors, EIDE and SATA disk drives, CD and DVD drives, dual TV tuners (although one is disabled right now), multiple memory card readers and such.

Fan noise isn't a problem at all. I can upgrade to an Arctic unit correct? I just snap it on?

Dwanderer - I have the TV Wonder Elite card which it 'says' is compatible with Vivo, so I could hopefully avoid the conflict...did you have an ATI tuner and graphics card?

Is there an appreciable difference in DDR vs. GDDR for mem?

So looking at the ATI X850 XT vs. 7800 GS. I'm not a huge gamer, so speed difference between these two isn't likely going to be more than a nuance.

The 7800 seems a like it is a little more recent and would be more attuned to handling Vista requirements moving forward. It looks cheaper to. only $299.99 here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150131

The link provided to the ATI X850XT is $359.00+shipping...but the ATI will 'maybe' be more (or maybe less?) Avivo compatible with the TV Wonder Elite that I have,.

Decisions, decisions.
 
mtzlblk said:
Dwanderer - I have the TV Wonder Elite card which it 'says' is compatible with Vivo, so I could hopefully avoid the conflict...did you have an ATI tuner and graphics card?
Click to expand...
I'm not really sure of the exact make of the card, I got it off a friend used and it's a very pretty purple PCB with all the rest gold accent.

I think it's a "Built By ATi" or a Saphire, but I'm not sure. I've been bouncing 'tween a 7600GT XXX, 2xX1600XTs, and an X1800GTO for a few weeks now and I've experienced the problem with both nVidia and ATi graphic cards with VIVO installed in the system.

I just don't install the VIVO bits of those cards when it asks after you initially reboot after a driver install, then I disable the device under control manager, and bada-bing I got my magic TIVO like pause again. :)
 
digitalwanderer said:
I'm not really sure of the exact make of the card, I got it off a friend used and it's a very pretty purple PCB with all the rest gold accent.

I think it's a "Built By ATi" or a Saphire, but I'm not sure. I've been bouncing 'tween a 7600GT XXX, 2xX1600XTs, and an X1800GTO for a few weeks now and I've experienced the problem with both nVidia and ATi graphic cards with VIVO installed in the system.

I just don't install the VIVO bits of those cards when it asks after you initially reboot after a driver install, then I disable the device under control manager, and bada-bing I got my magic TIVO like pause again. :)
Click to expand...
My Built by ATI TVWE is purple and gold, but and other people may have picked up on it and/or they continued the theme to other products. How do you watch TV in the first place if your disable the tuner in device manager? Do you disable the VIVO component under codecs? Does this effect quality at all?

This is important as I am also a Mr. Mom, at least after 6 pm and with a 16 mo. old PAUSE will be crucial.
 
{Sniping}Waste said:
Its not as powerful as the X850TX or 7800GS but its not very far away. ATI has a clearance sale on its X850 pro AGP for $139 on there site. This is much cheeper the $299 and the profromans will be about 10% slower the the X850XT.
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2699206
Click to expand...
Same chipset, just lower clock speed, correct?

I don't really play games too often, so the difference between this and an XT and an XT PE will be lost on me. Hard to argue with $139.00.
 
Thanks

DW and Sniping,

Thanks much for your input, indeed very helpful.

I'll probably order the 850 Pro and get it on the 17th. That will give me a week to put the new power supply in, assuming that doesn't offer any surprises.

I will keep you posted on how it works out and let you know if I get any conflicts with VIVO.
 
The X850 pro is not just clock speed differents. The X850 XT is 16 pixel pipe lines and the X850 pro has 4 pixel pipe lines disabled so is has 12 working pixel pipe lines. The proformans differents is about 10% to 15% from a X850 XT.

If it were me, I would not spend $300 on a AGP card because I could get a much better PCI-E card for that price. It would be better to just get a PCI-E mobo and with the money left you could still get a better video card with $220 left over after buying the mobo or get a much cheaper AGP card like the X850 pro.

Is your system a duel core or is it 2 seperat CPUs? Is it S478 or Socket T(775)?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mtzlblk said:
How do you watch TV in the first place if your disable the tuner in device manager? Do you disable the VIVO component under codecs? Does this effect quality at all?
Click to expand...
I don't disable the TV tuner in device manager, I disable the "unknown device" which is the VIVO component of the video card...which is un-identified because I cancelled when it asked me if I wanted to install the "newly found hardware".

When you install a card with VIVO most times you'll install the drivers and reboot, and then when your PC boots up again it will find new hardware to install....that new hardware to be installed is the VIVO components to your viddy card (not TV card) and those are the ones you do not want installed or else it'll mess up the "pause" feature.

It actually took me quite a bit of searching on Rage3D to find that one, just thought I'd pass it along. :)
 
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