Blu-Ray Disc Association sinks to new low with childish YouTube attack ads!

[pascal]

Hey, that was funny.
I liked the youtube ones. Thank you

I and many people here like Blu-Ray because of the PS3 and the more 110 BDs with portuguese subtitles and/or audio available in the market :smile:

IIRC Sony is thinking about put available in the net the subtitles and audio for BDs without it.

 

[Arwin]

(isn't persistent storage optional as well?)

No, that's part of Profile 1.1

Furthermore HDi speeds up development compared to BD-J. Besides HDi has support of one of the biggest dev-tools manufacturer, Microsoft. Sure you can hate Microsoft (if you do :] ) but there's no real space for argument here: Sony is THE hardware manufacturer and Microsoft is THE software manufacturer.

Maybe, but Java is well supported and I have to say I've seen some very good Java development tools around, some of which are probably better than Microsoft's.

And yes, I'm kind of a Java hater so I'm probably biased here, but Java is semi-portable across current devices and I see no reason why writing dynamic content for Blu Ray devices should be any easier.

One of the reasons why it took them a little longer is because they've been working on speccing the required Java support very exactly. I'm not a fan of Java per se either, but it's better than most things we have, imho.

With multiple manufacturers of hardware, constantly changing specs and time-constrained reality (you want BD release at least as soon on the shelves as the HD-DVD one) BD-J is not a winner in this battle IMO.

Maybe, maybe not. I think they're getting it done quickly enough.

But obviously what matters is content, amount of strong releases and variety of offerings. This is the space where Sony has an edge and this is what will probably play the major role in settling Blu Ray as a winner.

Also true. But I'm genuinely also hoping BluRay wins because I think it's the best format. There may never be another format like it for a long time (when downloadable content takes over in say 10 years), and I'm thinking that BluRay is the best thing for that period of time.

 

[Dominik D]

Maybe, but Java is well supported and I have to say I've seen some very good Java development tools around, some of which are probably better than Microsoft's.

MS has pretty much no tools for Java if that's what you mean.

One of the reasons why it took them a little longer is because they've been working on speccing the required Java support very exactly. I'm not a fan of Java per se either, but it's better than most things we have, imho.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "better than most things we have". Could you please explain?

Maybe, maybe not. I think they're getting it done quickly enough.

There was one news on the intertubes that people developing bonus content for both formats consider BD-J development process slower. But I'm far from trusting everything I read on the Internet. However I firmly believe that HDi is better option for UI/multimedia content designers as they are more familiar with ECMAScript (ActionScript/JavaScript has wide adoption) and XML/HTML than with Java.

Also true. But I'm genuinely also hoping BluRay wins because I think it's the best format. There may never be another format like it for a long time (when downloadable content takes over in say 10 years), and I'm thinking that BluRay is the best thing for that period of time.

Well, I - for many reasons - hope that HD-DVD will be the leading format, but at the same time I can see that chances are really slim.

 

[Geo]

I will be very interested to see if the B-r 1.1 stand alone players really have acceptable performance. I can tell you from personal experience that even a second generation player like BDP-S300 absolutely does not on a java-heavy title. Do they need PS3-like performance to be "acceptable"? Well, that would be nice but probably not. However, they need much better than the stand alones have now. Like 3-4x, in my opinion. That's probably a bit much for a one gen jump in CE. . . but we'll see.

 

[patsu]

Hmmm... yes, I am looking forward to PS3's Java implementation in BD-J and Playstation Home.

 

[phat]

The thing is: discs are no longer just about the movie. You get a bunch of bonus content you can spend a lot of time with: interviews, commentary and more. It's no longer as simple as bitrate comparison. In this area both formats have their strengths and weaknesses and are pretty well balanced if you look at specs, but the content you get when you buy BD or HD-DVD differs significantly. If you're collecting movies (good or bad - doesn't matter) this becomes a major factor when you want to decide to go with one format or another.

I find the whole interactivity argument weak. First and foremost for me is maximum headroom for picture quality and audio quality. There isn't enough relevant difference in interactivity in the two formats to overwhelm the headroom considerations.

And if you like extra features, wouldn't you want the extra capacity?

Another factor is price. You can get HD-DVD player for below $200 but Blu Ray players start with almost twice as expensive price tag. I can get a lot of movies for that difference. That said: I have Blu Ray player myself but that's purely because I own PS3.

Player costs will account for a very small fraction of the total cost of your movie library in the long term. Software costs will dominate, and so far BD movies are often cheaper than HD-DVD.

 

[SPM]

...... but $150 million dollar bribe for studio support isn't.

Paying someone not to sell media on a competitor's format is probably a violation of anti-competition law as well.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Player costs will account for a very small fraction of the total cost of your movie library in the long term. Software costs will dominate, and so far BD movies are often cheaper than HD-DVD.

What are you basing this cheaper on? Local price deals? What I see in walmart is pretty much the same price with some variance for premium titles. BR discs are more expensive to manufacture, so in the end (once prices reach mainstream and discount sales levels) one would expect they wouldn't be able to achieve the same minimum price as HD DVD.

 

[Mintmaster]

For all you guys arguing quality, get real. HD-DVD is better than ATSC, and ATSC is much better than nearly all satellite HD-DVD feeds, and that is far better than upscaled DVD/SD.

If going from upscaled DVD to an HD format isn't compelling enough to switch for most people, then the maximum possible difference between HD-DVD and BluRay is utterly irrelevent.

I'm not saying that bitrate and capacity are the only determining factors here, obviously. I was just pointing out why in this context bitrate and capacity matter.

The other important technical factors are
- production cost
- extra technical media features

In terms of extra features, the capacity also determines whether or not you can have the extra content in HD, for instance (the interviews and so on). But of course there are also the picture in picture features, database options, online integration and such.

This has already been addressed. See this post, for example:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=914499&postcount=4

Studios want to charge extra for bonus content, and they want to market it as a bonus disc. They will get more revenue by charging a premium for this content to movie buffs than they will by including it for free in hopes of increasing sales of the general release.

You're arguing a point against HD-DVD that's a complete non-issue.

 

[phat]

For all you guys arguing quality, get real. HD-DVD is better than ATSC, and ATSC is much better than nearly all satellite HD-DVD feeds, and that is far better than upscaled DVD/SD.

If going from upscaled DVD to an HD format isn't compelling enough to switch for most people, then the maximum possible difference between HD-DVD and BluRay is utterly irrelevent.

I'm not arguing for why "most people" should or would favour one HD disc format over another. The average consumer is happy enough with upscaled DVD. I'm arguing for why anyone who cares about picture or audio quality should prefer BD. I'm perfectly aware most people aren't as sensitive to these things as some of us are.

 

[DemoCoder]

Ironically, the space limits of HD-DVD seem to be affecting # of soundtracks more than anything else, rather than picture.

Personally, I wish they had used BluRay's extra space to do something wacky and spectacular, like supporting 3D or future HDR displays, or 1080p@60fps. (e.g. Maxivision)

The format war is going to come down to content, plain an simple. HDi vs BD-J is irrelevent. Purported disc manufacturing cost issues and cycle times, likely to be irrelevent by the time the format war is close to being over. OPU differences? Wow, a $8-9 increase in player cost.

 

[pascal]

Democoder
Maybe what you wish will come in the future :smile:

I see PS3 having cooler, smaller and cheaper versions in the future creating a very large installed base. And my guess PS4 and PS5 will be fully backward compatible with PS3 and Blu-Ray with enhacements and new technology. IMHO Blu-Ray is a strong point for PS3 and beyond, and vice-versa.

It will be very difficult to see Blu-Ray dissapearing or losing like Betamax.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Democoder
Maybe what you wish will come in the future :smile:

I see PS3 having cooler, smaller and cheaper versions in the future creating a very large installed base. And my guess PS4 and PS5 will be fully backward compatible with PS3 and Blu-Ray with enhacements and new technology. IMHO Blu-Ray is a strong point for PS3 and beyond, and vice-versa.

It will be very difficult to see Blu-Ray dissapearing or losing like Betamax.

I don't think smaller cheaper ps3's are anywhere near as important as smaller cheaper standalones. Most of the people who own DVD players bought them at the $100 mark or lower.

 

[pascal]

Imagine the situation, two competing technologies like VHS and Betamax.
Betamax had superior technology but lost in installed base, available content and diversity of players. Now say that you put Betamax inside of PS2, which has 100 Millions (?) installed base. Well, no content provider will ever ignore it, and with a continous/strong flow of content will come the supportive offer of cheap players, disk rent, etc...

My point is Blu-Ray will hardlly become the second Betamax because of PS3.

 

[Mintmaster]

I'm not arguing for why "most people" should or would favour one HD disc format over another. The average consumer is happy enough with upscaled DVD. I'm arguing for why anyone who cares about picture or audio quality should prefer BD. I'm perfectly aware most people aren't as sensitive to these things as some of us are.

When I say most people, I'm talking about most people who will buy either BluRay or HD-DVD.

Cable/satellite providers started targetting videophiles first for HD material and even today they only have a fraction of the total TV market paying for it. Yet even for this discriminating group, they felt no need to even approach ATSC quality. The gap in quality between HDTV signals over satellite/cable and HD-DVD is far, far bigger than the gap between HD-DVD and BluRay could ever be.

Like I said before, it's a non-factor. The best codecs running at HD-DVD bitrate are good enough that 60% more gets you pretty much nothing. You're in the land of diminishing returns.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Imagine the situation, two competing technologies like VHS and Betamax.
Betamax had superior technology but lost in installed base, available content and diversity of players. Now say that you put Betamax inside of PS2, which has 100 Millions (?) installed base. Well, no content provider will ever ignore it, and with a continous/strong flow of content will come the supportive offer of cheap players, disk rent, etc...

My point is Blu-Ray will hardlly become the second Betamax because of PS3.

1) If the ps2 had included betamax it would have been lucky to sell 10 million units let alone 100 million.

2) It's quite doubtful at this point that the ps3 will ever see an install base of the size of ps2.

3) All HD format sales right now are a joke. Either format or both formats could die in an instant and no one (outside of some tech forums) would really notice or care.

4) As ps3's get cheaper so do stand alone units. If the stand alone units are not the best value BR players in a few years it will likely be because BR has lost.

<edit> I should also add betamax wasn't rejected quickly or anything. It was introduced in 1975, was the leading format in 1983, Sony conceded defeat in 1988 (vhs had moved ahead around 1985).

 

[Mintmaster]

My point is Blu-Ray will hardlly become the second Betamax because of PS3.

Of course it won't. However, its presence in PS3 is not going to kill HD-DVD.

HD standalones will outrun PS3 sales just like DVD outsold PS2. In particular, discs sold to people with standalones will show an even bigger disparity. If you burn all the PS2 hardware in the world, DVD sales will barely be affected, and in the long term you'll see the same with PS3's effect on BD sales.

 

[Mintmaster]

Personally, I wish they had used BluRay's extra space to do something wacky and spectacular, like supporting 3D or future HDR displays, or 1080p@60fps. (e.g. Maxivision)

You really like 60fps for video?

It looks so amateurish, like it was filmed with a HandyCam. Once in a while I see it in low-budget TV shows and movies, and it almost makes me wince.

 

[pascal]

1) If the ps2 had included betamax it would have been lucky to sell 10 million units let alone 100 million.

2) It's quite doubtful at this point that the ps3 will ever see an install base of the size of ps2.

Only time will tell, but PS3 may have a longer life-span. And again, probably there will be a PS4. So the Playstation series may reach the 100 millions units.

3) All HD format sales right now are a joke. Either format or both formats could die in an instant and no one (outside of some tech forums) would really notice or care.

Agree.

4) As ps3's get cheaper so do stand alone units. If the stand alone units are not the best value BR players in a few years it will likely be because BR has lost.

I am not saying that PS3 will compete directlly with stand alone players, but that it will help create the minimum/stable/safe environment where Blu-Ray stand alone players can flourish and compete against HDVD stand alone players.

Again, my point is Blu-Ray will hardlly dissapear or die.

 

[pascal]

Of course it won't. However, its presence in PS3 is not going to kill HD-DVD.

But will definitilly help Blu-Ray compete against HDDVD.

HD-DVD can win or die. Blu-Ray can win but will hardlly die.

HD standalones will outrun PS3 sales just like DVD outsold PS2. In particular, discs sold to people with standalones will show an even bigger disparity. If you burn all the PS2 hardware in the world, DVD sales will barely be affected, and in the long term you'll see the same with PS3's effect on BD sales.

PS2 is post DVD. PS3 born with Blu-Ray at the same time. It can boost initial sales and environment creating an strong start and making a stable future where you can bet.