Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [pre E3 2019] *spawn*

[Megadrive1988]

It seems the latest rumors at Era is that AMD and Sony created some custom RT logic solution for PS5, while Microsoft opted for DirectX/Software RT solution. https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...-anaconda-dont-want-none.112607/post-20242652

Supposed leaked specs from a Sony-Dev meeting which was held the day prior to Cerny's Wired interview.

Edit: Oh snap, I see some info was already posted. I guess my page wasn't refreshing correctly, notifying me on new replies.

What is that image supposed to be ?

 

[BRiT]

What is that image supposed to be ?

A Big Buck. A 12 (?) point Buck.

Translation: Its going to cost a lot. Perhaps 1200 Bucks.

 

[Shortbread]

What is that image supposed to be ?

Supposedly where the leaked (PS5/SDK) specs came from. A Sony-Dev meeting which was held the day prior to Cerny's Wired interview. In the picture you can see certain things related to Sony. I believe the pic originated from Reddit by someone with knowledge of the event.

 

[iroboto]

There's some misunderstanding here.
DirectX RT (DXR) is the api, it doesn't say how it's implemented underneath, the same way Nvidia uses its 'hardware' acceleration when implementing it.
So MS saying it supports DXR doesn't say in what manner, the same way Sony saying its hardware RTRT doesn't mean much right now.
They both could be doing the same thing or different.(hopefully different)
DirectX RT doesn't mean it's software or hardware

I just need to double underline block quote this. It just means it leverages DirectX Raytracing API, which is expected since they developed it with a handful of IHVs and and launched it last year.

It also means....
All games with DXR launched today means they will have ray tracing enabled on any device that supports DXR. Which should mean 2 years of DXR titles should be fully available on the Xbox library come launch.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A Big Buck. A 12 (?) point Buck.

Translation: Its going to cost a lot. Perhaps 1200 Bucks.

Also, lots of water. It's going to be water cooled.

Regards,
SB

 

[Malo]

I wonder... would the market accept a PS5 as a high end console with massive hardware capabilities (and double the price) to exist alongside the existing PS4 for years? Games could potentially be developed and supported on both consoles with enhanced fidelity/features on the PS5.

 

[iroboto]

I wonder... would the market accept a PS5 as a high end console with massive hardware capabilities (and double the price) to exist alongside the existing PS4 for years? Games could potentially be developed and supported on both consoles with enhanced fidelity/features on the PS5.

I think we toyed with this idea several times when we were largely debating what Phil was saying about generation-less, and forward compatible. I think it really just came down to whether the old console would eventually hold back the new one from moving forward.

I think if the answer was 'no' then I think this would work. But if developers can make super usage of the CPU and the SSD and RT; then I suspect we need to let the old ones go to move forward. There is BC, so the damage to users moving forward a generation is significantly less.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

Also, lots of water. It's going to be water cooled.

Regards,
SB

I can see two pools. This confirms two kinds of memory. Luckly they are bridged.
Plates are stacked, so HBM is also confirmed.
Besides, looking at the two wooden boxes we can see that lots of good stuff will be included.

Never imagined this picture could be so informative

 

[flutter]

I can see two pools. This confirms two kinds of memory. Luckly they are bridged.
Plates are stacked, so HBM is also confirmed.
Besides, looking at the two wooden boxes we can see that lots of good stuff will be included.

Never imagined this picture could be so informative

You also forgot this clue about HBM

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It also means....
All games with DXR launched today means they will have ray tracing enabled on any device that supports DXR. Which should mean 2 years of DXR titles should be fully available on the Xbox library come launch.

Phrased like that, you make it sound like at launch, XBN will have two years PC titles available to run on it. Are you expecting XBN to run Windows games directly, no porting needed?

 

[Metal_Spirit]

You also forgot this clue about HBM

And you missed the two Naughty dog optimizations on the second pool. Just zoom in on the statues.

 

[iroboto]

Phrased like that, you make it sound like at launch, XBN will have two years PC titles available to run on it. Are you expecting XBN to run Windows games directly, no porting needed?

This is where I have to assume the API is working.
Do developers write a single code base and have DX flag checks and use #ifXbox ?
It seems like the most optimal method to share the advantages of having DX on windows and Xbox.

I don’t think they are writing two completely separate code bases.

If the code base is shared and then, DXR code should be there on Xbox, the system is just skipping it because it doesn’t have the feature.

At least, that’s what I’m thinking would be he case. if it’s not I’d be a bit surprised, since I largely suspect MS should be informing devs to do this knowing well in advance that RT is coming for consoles.

At the very least a patch for Xbox binaries would be sufficient. BC is a non issue because Xbox One can’t run it. Patching DXR in would be for the benefit of nextbox

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Those are different, because Sony set out to compete independently - they didn't partner with a hardware partner and then part of it, the bit the hardware partner was an expert at, do themselves.

With cameras, Sony started by partnering with Zeiss for lenses - It wasn't until much later than Sony began manufacturing their own lenses. With PlayStation, 3D graphics were technology in their infancy - everybody was a n00b in terms of 3D gaming graphics.

I'm sure Sony's input would be valuable (and how much of Sony? Are people from the Sony Imageworks included in the talks, or just SIE people?

You're taken my questioning of your statement to a bit of a ridiculous degree here. Sony can exploit their animation studio's knowledge without those guys talking directly to AMD. Whatever silicon AMD are producing to support raytracing, it's supporting a software raytracing system much like AES instructions support rapid encryption/decryption algorithms without being the algorithm themselves.

I don't subscribe to most of the rumours flying out but I can believe AMD are working raytracing for their own use and I can also believe Sony may have a bespoke implementation for PlayStation 5. We saw bespoke Sony modifications to AMD's GPU silicon with both PS4 and PS4 Pro.

 

[Jay]

At the very least a patch for Xbox binaries would be sufficient. BC is a non issue because Xbox One can’t run it. Patching DXR in would be for the benefit of nextbox

Wouldn't be patching the binary if I'm understanding what your saying.
Would patch from the pc branch of the code to the Xbox branch.
It would be nice for gamers, benefit to studio is minor bump in sales, bit like when get X enhanced (not many RT games) , devs get to see what works well and what doesn't for Scarlett based on what they've currently done.

So I do expect some Scarlett RT patched games, if platformance is good enough that is, as its using common API so amount of work is reduced.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The most unconvincing part IMO is that 1,8 Ghz for Navi. Too good to be true.

RTG is in for a world of hurt if Navi didn't dramatically improve the frequency/power curves in comparison with Vega 20.
I'm not saying it's not probable that RTG will be in a world of hurt because of this, though.They've been failing to deliver on that front for quite a while.

There's no way Sony have hardware RT and AMD haven't got any for their GPUs. What's Sony's expertise in creating an RT unit that AMD have fumbled with? What IP are Sony going to own and control and limit AMD's use of? It's fanboy nonsense. If there's RT hardware in the GPU, it's from AMD and will appear in their PC GPUs.

- Xbox 360's Xenos architecture with eDRAM and unified Vec4+Scalar shaders never saw the light of day in PC graphics cards.

- Hardware Tessellation block from 2005's Xenos didn't appear in any AMD graphics card until 2 years later with the TeraScale / HD2000 series. Same with unified shaders.

- GCN2 and later don't have XBone's custom DSP block for Kinect 2 (which is still selling for the PC AFAIK).

- Vega doesn't support checkerboard rendering, which could have been a gamechanger for people using 4K TVs and monitors.


Custom hardware blocks/features in consoles are normal in pretty much all consoles, and it's also normal for some of those features to appear a couple of years later (or sometimes never) in PC GPUs.
I don't know why this got you so worked up, to the point of shouting fanboy accusations.
Besides, the reddit post actually only says the RT blocks were co-developed by AMD and Sony (who contrary to local forum belief still develops custom ISPs and SoCs), and they think that's the source for the "Navi is custom made for Sony" rumors.
It doesn't say anything about PS5's RT hardware blocks not being available for the PC Navi. Though if it was co-developed by Sony there's a chance it won't be available for the PC, and definitely won't be available for the next Xbox. That doesn't stop AMD or AMD+Microsoft from developing a different approach for Xbox, obviously.

What is that image supposed to be ?

It's supposed to be the follow-up of another picture that was posted along with these latest rumors.
The first picture shows a dinner room with a large Sony logo in the stage, the second picture with the deer shows a coffee break from a Sony conference (you can clearly read the logo in the ribbons for the ID cards and bags, and there's a large logo on a wall).
These are definitely from a Sony-related event/conference, but I can't see anything related to Playstation specifically.

The specs seem pretty plausible to me, at least.

 

[Deleted member 91098]

[...]

Supposed leaked specs from a Sony-Dev meeting which was held the day prior to Cerny's Wired interview.

[...]

Looking at the Exif data (which can be faked) [0] of the image (Create Date: 2019:04:17 09:20:00) it was shot 1 day after Mark Cerny's interview with Wired (16th of April, 8:00 AM). Unless altered the photo was captured with a Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus which only released one month earlier. Seems like a tech savy person which I guess most gaming related people are.

My take: there really was a Sony event like described in the reddit post [1] but the poster used it to mix the photos with their own take on the PS5.

But that may be because I'm a skeptic and expect the CPU to run at 2.8 GHz like AMDs current 45 TDP 8 core CPU and the GPU at most at 1600 MHz. But on the other hand the SSD and HDD combo makes it more believable again.

[0] https://exifinfo.org/detail/YSqnjr_QC9y921ywW_OJOA
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/bhabap/well_here_we_go/

Phrased like that, you make it sound like at launch, XBN will have two years PC titles available to run on it. Are you expecting XBN to run Windows games directly, no porting needed?

I wonder if Microsoft looked into virtualized Windows games or even a full blown virtualized Windows.

• Xbox One already uses virtualized hardware as far as I know
• Microsoft develops their Core OS which then is further specialized for the specific platform
• AMD already has hardware based virtualization in their CPU and since Vega in their GPU (MxGPU which is SR-IOV based)

This would allow them to expand their gaming catalogue and make the console a Subor Z Plus on steroids. Would be a nice differentiator between Playstation and Xbox as well as Lockhart and Anaconda (I would guess Lockhart has not enough memory to be a viable option).

Would also allow their users to use the next Xbox for VR through it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

- Xbox 360's Xenos architecture with eDRAM and unified Vec4+Scalar shaders never saw the light of day in PC graphics cards.
- Hardware Tessellation block from 2005's Xenos didn't appear in any AMD graphics card until 2 years later with the TeraScale / HD2000 series. Same with unified shaders.
- GCN2 and later don't have XBone's custom DSP block for Kinect 2 (which is still selling for the PC AFAIK).
- Vega doesn't support checkerboard rendering, which could have been a gamechanger for people using 4K TVs and monitors.

None of those have value outside of gaming, and as niche (underused) features in the PC space. RT accelleration has a huge market potential in professional imaging. Sony themselves would benefit a huge amount from hardware accelerated RT in their film studios, dramatically reducing the cost of film production. So, yeah, the idea that PS5 will have hardware accelerated RTRT that AMD's other products won't see for a couple of years is daft. Sony's influence is probably just a few tweaks and suggestions to AMD's already existing plans to accelerate, perhaps some ideas that'll help with game acceleration in a solution that's otherwise a little more focussed on production visuals.

 

[Jay]

None of those have value outside of gaming, and as niche (underused) features in the PC space. RT accelleration has a huge market potential in professional imaging. Sony themselves would benefit a huge amount from hardware accelerated RT in their film studios, dramatically reducing the cost of film production. So, yeah, the idea that PS5 will have hardware accelerated RTRT that AMD's other products won't see for a couple of years is daft. Sony's influence is probably just a few tweaks and suggestions to AMD's already existing plans to accelerate, perhaps some ideas that'll help with game acceleration in a solution that's otherwise a little more focussed on production visuals.

Someone mentioned that the leaks say only the top end navi supports RTRT.
If this is true it could be doing it with pretty much just brute TF.
Which could mean Sony and MS made customisations to support some level of RT at console level.

AMD hardware support might be post navi, all this RTRT fuss may have come too late for navi.
AMD may not have thought it was worth it at the time for navi.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

None of those have value outside of gaming, and as niche (underused) features in the PC space. RT accelleration has a huge market potential in professional imaging.

Yet all info available so far point to Navi being a gaming architecture:

GFX10 marks the return of a flag indicating there's no SRAM ECC, which seems expected for a gaming architecture.

Whereas nvidia's RTX line seems to me that it's a professional imaging architecture, since the IQ gains they achieve at sufficient real-time performance are notoriously small.

So, yeah, the idea that PS5 will have hardware accelerated RTRT that AMD's other products won't see for a couple of years is daft.

Your timeline is completely wrong.

Navi is expected in mid-2019. The PS5 is expected in mid-2020 at the earliest.
Navi with Sony+AMD RT hardware could be exclusive to PS5, and by mid-2020 AMD could be months away from releasing post-Navi (or post-Navi 10) on the PC which does have RT hardware.

This would be similar to what happened with e.g. rapid packed math.
Mid 2016: AMD releases Polaris with GFX8 ISA.
Late 2016: Sony releases Neo / PS4 Pro with what seems to be a Polaris GFX8 with RPM.
Mid 2017: AMD releases Vega which is a new architecture that has RPM in all its forms.

Sony's influence is probably just a few tweaks and suggestions to AMD's already existing plans to accelerate, perhaps some ideas that'll help with game acceleration in a solution that's otherwise a little more focussed on production visuals.

Pure speculation on your part.
The PS5's implementation could be 100% for gaming, using much smaller data variables and not capable of producing pro imaging quality. Solo-AMD's implementation for the PC market could be significantly different and more versatile, to be used by Radeon Pro cards for offline RT.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

So, yeah, the idea that PS5 will have hardware accelerated RTRT that AMD's other products won't see for a couple of years is daft. Sony's influence is probably just a few tweaks and suggestions to AMD's already existing plans to accelerate, perhaps some ideas that'll help with game acceleration in a solution that's otherwise a little more focussed on production visuals.

My mind is boggled with the ease you dismiss what Sony brings to the partnership. Sony has been heavily invested in 3D computer animations since the creation of Sony Animation in 2002 and their first feature film Open Season (2006) for which they developed a bunch of new 3D modelling technologies. AMD sure have a lot more silicon design and production experience on modern processes but Sony have fifteen years of industry experience in producing successful 3D movies.