Anti-life....? bioethics... irrationalism?

Leon Kass wants me to die. And you too. In fact, he thinks it's good for us.

If you don't know who Kass is, you should. Born in Chicago, Illinois in February 1939, this conservative thinker chairs the US President's Council on Bioethics -- an organization that advises on biomedical science and technology issues, and ultimately steers related US legislation and policy.

This guy seems to oppose prolonging the life of our loved ones, and the use of e-stem-cells for therapeutic purposes... among other things...

Comments...
http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/17/mooney-c.html

his writings...
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0105/articles/kass.html


PS I've heard of this guy so I looked for some info, and found these interesting articles... dunno about these sites... ye be warned...
 
I don't see the problem . There are two many people alive and at some point soon the number will double. There wont be enough food to feed everyone more so than right now. So instead of people living 150 years perhaps its better if we only live 100 .
 
Good article, although if I recall correctly it's about two years old (at least that's when I remember reading it). Chris Mooney is about the only sane writer at the American Prospect left; I can only hope he is able to land in greener pastures eventually. I had an short email conversation with him in 2001 - very smart guy. :)

WRT Kass the man represents the true dark side of conservatism. Intellectuals who share his worldview look back upon five millenia of steady material progress and worry about not whether it will end or falter but that it will continue. In their view this progress seperates humanity from its "basic nature," as we may have been more frugal, more parochial, less risk taking before, now we have less constraint placed upon us. They have picked stem cell cloning as their first battle not because the act of fetal harvesting offends them, but because they hope to use the abortion angle to score a opening victory against all medical progress, in the same manner that the left scored a similiar win over GMOs in Europe and now increasingly America.

The saddest thing is that they have this large counterpart on the left that would also like to throw us all back to some primitive Eden far from the "alienating" influence of technology. The focus is different, more spiritual than moral, but the core ideology is frighteningly similiar.

jvd - read some Julian Simon, starting with The Ultimate Resource. What you were taught about "overpopulation" isn't exactly true.
 
I don't see the problem . There are two many people alive and at some point soon the number will double. There wont be enough food to feed everyone more so than right now. So instead of people living 150 years perhaps its better if we only live 100 .

That's because you failed math class. The basic exponential growth equation is N = N_0 * exp(k*t). The longevity of people past reproductive age has a marginal effect on the growth factor K - the equation will remain exponential, even if human beings died at age 30, if they continue to have more than 2.1 children per family.

If you take two scenarios: everyone lives to 200 years old, but has 2 children per couple, and everyone lives to 70 years old, but has 4 children per family, the latter is way way worse for the planet.

The problem my dear, is heterosexual breeders, not long life. As long as the vast majority of the population keeps fucking and popping out babies at high rates, no amount of wars, disease, or anti-life MORONS like you will be able to stop the population expansion. Tell me, just how did you calculate that 100 should be the legal maximum lifespan (afterwards, what? we are to be executed by you for the "good" of the planet), and not 150? Why not 90? Why not 70? I'd like to see precisely how you decided at what age people should be murdered to protect your food supply (assuming no growth in food supply is possible)

Leon Kass is a fucking moron. He wants to kill old people, but protect unborn children which is precisely 180-degrees wrong if you want to control population growth. But who would expect conservative zealot luddites to reason against technology correctly? It's pure emotion.
 
DemoCoder said:
That's because you failed math class.

You're killing me! I was going to post about how the man is an example of the far right going overboard, but you said it so much better. heh. Although, the way you articulated your position on homosexuality being the "problem" behind population growth is going to find it's way into Natoma's mouth directed at me in our next discussion, I'm sure. :) :LOL:
 
I just did it to rub JVD. Once homos and dykes start getting legally married, who knows, they might want to have large familities. And with cloning and other gene engineering, it's even possible that two males or females may conceive.

The problem is not wealthy westerners living to ripe old age. Already in Europe, Japan, the US, even Shanghai, China, the birth rates are heading below the replacement rates. In Shanghai, for example, it's 1.8 right now, as young cosmopolitian women with new found wealth and education delay child birth to well into their thirties, if at all.

We should not sanction anti-life philosophy. It needs to be combated with facts. The last thing we need is wacko religious or enviro-nuts with their "human beings are a cancer on gaia" idealogy to create a Twelve Monkey's scenario. An eco-terrorism that is extremely dangerous.


Anyway, as people's lifespans increase, and their wealth, their desire to "pass on their genes" diminishes with age, as does their need for child labor, or children to "take care of them" when they get old, given the rise in health at old age.

I personally don't care about my "family line" or passing on my name or genes. I want to be alive in the year 2100, instead of living there vicariously through my genes.
 
Its okay . We should let gay people marry. That way the wont be able to reproduce more rejects huh .


If you take two scenarios: everyone lives to 200 years old, but has 2 children per couple, and everyone lives to 70 years old, but has 4 children per family, the latter is way way worse for the planet.

And if everyone lives to 70 and only has 2 children per couple ?
 
DemoCoder said:
I don't see the problem . There are two many people alive and at some point soon the number will double. There wont be enough food to feed everyone more so than right now. So instead of people living 150 years perhaps its better if we only live 100 .

That's because you failed math class. The basic exponential growth equation is N = N_0 * exp(k*t). The longevity of people past reproductive age has a marginal effect on the growth factor K - the equation will remain exponential, even if human beings died at age 30, if they continue to have more than 2.1 children per family.

If you take two scenarios: everyone lives to 200 years old, but has 2 children per couple, and everyone lives to 70 years old, but has 4 children per family, the latter is way way worse for the planet.

The problem my dear, is heterosexual breeders, not long life. As long as the vast majority of the population keeps fucking and popping out babies at high rates, no amount of wars, disease, or anti-life MORONS like you will be able to stop the population expansion. Tell me, just how did you calculate that 100 should be the legal maximum lifespan (afterwards, what? we are to be executed by you for the "good" of the planet), and not 150? Why not 90? Why not 70? I'd like to see precisely how you decided at what age people should be murdered to protect your food supply (assuming no growth in food supply is possible)

Leon Kass is a fucking moron. He wants to kill old people, but protect unborn children which is precisely 180-degrees wrong if you want to control population growth. But who would expect conservative zealot luddites to reason against technology correctly? It's pure emotion.
I love it when people start drawing false conclusions about other peoples posts. (im guilty from time to time.) Where in jvd does he say we could only live till 100. He suggests that science shouldnt try to extend life well pass 100. There is an immense difference between what you falsely concluded and what he posted. At no point in his post does he say to execute anyone over 100, which is where your conclusion that he is an "anti-life MORONS" is also false.

I could care less whether people live 100, 70, 150 years. As long as govermnent increase the retirement age accordingly.

later,
epic
 
Thank you epic . I also like that some how i've become a gay hater when I never was one nor ever will be one . I personaly don't care what they do as long as they don't : kill , rape , rob , or harm others. They can do anything they want in my eyes including marriage and adoption .

Also having people continue to live longer will not only cost us alot of money in health bills . But it will also put more of a strain on our food supplys . If we keep increasing the birth rate or keep it the same while we keep upping the life span of people we will have problems .
 
If we keep increasing the birth rate or keep it the same while we keep upping the life span of people we will have problems .

Wrong, thanks for playing. Dangerous wrongheaded thinking. In the nations with the longest live spans, highest levels of healthcare and wealth, the birth rates are plummeting, leading to depopulation. In Japan, Europe, and the US, the total fertility rate is now less than 2.1. In the US, it is 2.07. In Japan, it's a record setting 1.3, and in Europe it's about 1.5 That means that without immigration, over the next 100 years, Europe and Japan, and to some extent the US, will be facing massive depopulation. Japan (a country with very little immigration) is going to lose 30 million people in the next 30 years. Their population is going to peak at something like 130million, then fall to 100 million in a generation. If Japan does nothing to stem the tide, it will fall again to something like 60 million in another generation, even as Japanese people are living extreme lifespans. Europe is going to lose 100 million people in 50 years! People like you and who think like you are dangerous, because such conclusions can lead to policies which cause more death on bogus assumptions.


As to why I said you advocated execution and murder. If you stop me from getting lifesaving medical treatment, by denying me the ability to use the tools of science to extend my life, then it's the same as if you euthanized me. What fucking right do you have to tell me what drugs or therapies I apply to my body? How are you going to stop me from increasing my life span? How are you going to stop science, and what right do you have to stop people from learning and discovering how our biology works, and thus gaining the means to repair it. As I see it, you have ZERO right to dictate to me what I can do to extend my lifespan.

Moreover, your whole philosophy is on massively shake grounds. You have no rigorous argument as to "how to draw the line" How do you decide when to withhold medical treatment? At what age? For what diseases? Which scientific methods can't be pursued. How did you calculate all this? On what rigorous grounds can you back up this policy.

Answer: Nothing but a fuzzyheaded emotional pseudo-scientific malthusian notion that we can't let people live longer and healthier lives because of some baseless environmentalist agenda.


Here's a simple challenge for you. Calculate the population growth of OECD countries with the assumption that the average lifespan can be raised to 120 using the median total fertility rate (something like 1.85 per the United Nations population report). If you can't do some simple math, then don't go around making assertions.

Get your head out of the Malthusian 70s. The world will be facing an unsustainable depopulation crisis in the next century if current trends hold with no changes, and even life spans of 150 years won't stop the depopulation, it will only slow it down.
 
Increasing lifespan of its citizen and more babies are good for nations.

However, I am against using human embryonic stemcells, for what ever purpose it might be.
 
Here in Australia there was political talk about how there is a surge of older people and not many couples are having kids and fears of underpopulation have risen. This was a couple of years ago and I don't know what the situation is now.

Personally I don't care. I'm never going to spread my putrid genes anyway.
 
Lifespan is very different from birth rate in terms of population growth. An increasing birth rate (> 2 per couple) will increase population (in long term), and decreasing birth rate (< 2 per couple) will decrease population (also in long term), no matter how long the lifespan is. When birth rate is stable (= 2 per couple), longer lifespan results in larger population (which is linear, by the way), but it will still be stable in long term.

So increasing lifespan will increase overall population even with stable birth rate (= 2), but it's linear. That is, if the average lifespan increases from average 70 years to 140 years, the stable population will become roughly twice as large eventually.
 

Seems to me that even with these record lows your predicting the population is still increasing and will add another 3 billion by 2050. Not exactly .

Where do your numbers come from showing depopulation in the usa , japan and other countrys ?
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004374.html
Looks like there is 21 births for every 9 deaths . The average age right now is 64 .


More people living longer means more people on the planet if birth rates stay the same or increase . Which is what I have been saying .

From the numbers I posted there is positive increase in population . Not the negative trend like you have posted with nothing to back up your claim.


If you want to insult me and say things about me please post proof . Otherwise i suggest you shut up .
 
Well, if you tried to reason and think, perhaps you could come to the answer yourself.


#1 I never said population wouldn't increase in the short term, I simply said we are headed for depopulation. The curve is not monotonically increasing, therefore, it if current trends continue, the world will peak at 9 billion, and then geometrically lose populaton thereafter.

#2 Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that longer lifespan = bad for population, when in fact, the opposite is the case. The countries where people live the longest lifespans are rapidly depopulating. Japan, Europe, Canada, US. If not for immigration, Europe and US would face seriously crises as there would be hardly any young workers in the next 50 years, and nothing but old retired people. The only reason the world population will growth in the next 50 years is because of developing nations like India and the African continent.

#3 The fallacious assumption that birthrates are static
More people living longer means more people on the planet if birth rates stay the same or increase . Which is what I have been saying

Well guess what, when people are educated, wealthy, and have healthcare and long lifespans, birthrates tend to decline. Couple that with fertility advances that let women have children into their late 30s, and you have the conditions to let people delay child birth. And when people do have children, they have no need to have more than 1 or 2 children, because child labor is no longer needed, and chiildren's life expectency is higher.

But no, no matter how many times it will be pointed out to you, and no matter how much evidence could be presented that you are wrong, I fear you will persist in your beliefs that long life is the primary cause of the world's population pressures, and you will persist in your wrongheaded belief that we must get rid billions of people because you think it is unsustainable.

Every few years, a new group of dimwits dusts off Malthus and proclaims that we won't have enough food, or iron, or copper, or whatever. A static view of the world that holds all over variables constant except one leads to erroneus predications (e.g. Ehrlich's Population Bomb is the most famous, we were supposed to have mass die offs by now). The only problem is, doomsday always fails to appear. Now of course, we'll run out of food and resources in 2050 right? Biotechnology won't change anything right? There will be no innovations in production. No nanotechnology. No new energy. Everything will be the same as 2004, except all 9 billion people will consume the same as an American today. We must assume the worst right? Let's kill off promising scientific research because, ohgawd, if we're wrong about efficiency continuing to increase, by 2050 we're be starving and the environment will be dead because people will live slightly longer.

And what if your wrong? What if restricting the level of healthcare science available to people instead slows the declining birthrates, so we end up with MORE people, instead of accelerating depopulation, you decelerate it? What if closing off valuable scientific corridors means you missed a discovery would could drastically reduce the amount of resources consumed per person? In fact, what if human beings could be engineered to require less food? What if our metabolism could be made more efficient?

Who knows. I look forward to a dynamic and changing, indeed, challenging future. And I will fight tooth and nail against scientific luddites and environmentalist wackos, who sell out my future by vowing to protect me against technology.
 
HAHAHAHHA! Somebody mentioned Malthus.

*edit*
A good read is:
Theoretical Evolutionary Ecology - Michael Bulmer 1994
Chapter 2 - Population Dynamics (single species model)
 
The planet can feed easily 10 billion now according to UN studies and when and IF we hit 10 billion, what with the collapsing demographics which isnt only happening in developped countreis but quickly gaining in underdevelopped areas as well, we will probably be able to feed many more that number. I personally cant tell the diff tween a veggie burger and real one... Imagine if we all got to liking them in our fast food. The energy devoted to making soy is a fraction than mkaing beef. And thats just an example of what can be achieved.

They had revised the 10 billion by 2050 to 2070 with the bell curve that the rapid changes in demographics has forced into their numbers. I doubt we'll ever hit it. It would take as major a socio-economic change as is occuring only in the opposite direction.

Woulda been nice to see Einstein still with us... Imagine having another 100 years or so of being able to continue to develop your mind and your research in such specialized fields.
 
Woulda been nice to see Einstein still with us... Imagine having another 100 years or so of being able to continue to develop your mind and your research in such specialized fields
Einstein right now would likely not have much of his intellectual capacity left. Currently we can only prolong life, not youth.
Most people start to get "set in their ways" after a certain age so longer life may ultimately lead to slower change/advancement than we have had the last 60 years.
 
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