"Affordable" 1080p projectors

L

London Geezer

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Well, i have been interested in projectors for a while now, and since 1080p is slowly being introduced more and more, i thought i'd run a search to see what we can get these days. Yes, i put the word "affordable" in quotes because even though they're much cheaper than those 10-20k monsters we've been seeing so far, these aren't cheap by any standard.



Mitsubishi HC5000 ~$4500

Panasonic AE1000U

Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl)(It's QUIET. Sony are really tickling my fancy, they seem to be focused on making quiet hardware which personally is a really really good thing)
Image quality review here

And its bigger brother, the Sony VLP-VW100 (Ruby)

Sharp XV-Z20000

Optoma HD81
 
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Good boy! And not only for replying to this thread, it took me a while to get all that info!!

Anyway, i have a question for you, and i have to ask because i have never tested them properly (as in, touching up the settings and in a room with proper lighting)...

How are black levels on these projectors? Since they use LCD technology, are these projectors as bad as scome LCD HDTVs at reproducing black levels? I would have thought they could be prone to the same issues as light would still come through the LCD screens when projecting the image, much like in normal HDTVs, resulting in "dark grey" instead of true black...

Thanks!
 
I was talking to the Panasonic rep at a trade show. Apparently the AE1000U adjusts the light strength every frame so that it gets blacker blacks. I didn't have time for him to go in to more detail about how it works.
 
Haven't got a 1080p projector either, but a 720p Optoma HD72i DLP projector.

When I was comparing LCD and DLP projectors, the most significant difference was in scenes like nighttime city scenes, where the DLP projectors had a clear edge showing a much more dynamic and colourful image, and better detailing in shadowy areas.
The absolute black is often blacker in LCD projectors due to automatic iris that adjusts light output for each frame, but that often has difficulty making dark scenes lack contrast, colour and shadow detail.

The black in my projector is black enough, it looks deep black in scenes where there's lighter content to fool your eye, but obviously it's more a very dark gray in scenes like a starfield scene in sci-fi movies, or even when projecting a completely black image.
Still, I'd say it's more black than gray, and really not much an issue to me at least.

That was when I compared teh already quite old Sanyo Z4 and Panasonic 900 to the Optoma HD72i, the new models from Panny and Sanyo might have improved in that regard.

Another factor to take into consideration is the real world ligth output of these projectors. When reviewing the above mentioned fp's, the Sanyo and to a lesser extent the Panasonic were just too dim and the picture was very easily washed out if there was even a moderate amount of ambient light, the Optoma however looks quite dynamic even with a reading light that's not directed towards the screen on, or with just the venetian blinds closed on daytime.

If you are considering a dlp projector, make sure you're not prone to the rainbows though.
I am, but they weighted less when comparing all the pros and cons, at least they're not giving me headaches as some claim they do, and they're relatively rare anyway not to ruin the viewing experience.

The 1080p projectors really are something to take into consideration if you're looking for a big full HD display, but remember they need a bulb replacement after some two-three thousand viewing hours (cost of bulbs €200-€500), and can even pop much sooner if you're unlucky.
I already have about 200 hours on my pj, though I've only had it for about two months and i don't think I have watched it that much.

Edit: Don't forget you also need a screen to project the image onto, and that can have a significant effect especially on the black levels (a grayish screen is better for reproducing blacks, and amazingly still show white as pure white, not gray)
 
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Martin Eddy said:
I was talking to the Panasonic rep at a trade show. Apparently the AE1000U adjusts the light strength every frame so that it gets blacker blacks. I didn't have time for him to go in to more detail about how it works.
Click to expand...
If it's anything like the previous pj's, it's a combination of a mechanical iris and some software image processing like realtime gamma adjusting etc..
 
Yeah the dynamic iris was touted as a huge thing in the Sony Ruby, making it really shine. Others have then used the technology and it seems to be working wonders sometimes. I'm still not wure how exactly it works but i dont need to know.
 
Wow thanks Rabid, i actually read throught he whole thing! :oops:

Amazing comments, wish i had the money...

A projector like the Sony VPL-VW50 is bought predominantly for one reason and one reason only: to display the future HDTV material on the screen without any compromises and in the highest possible image quality.

In the last couple of weeks we have examined the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD topics in detail, and of course we could not pass on the opportunity to feed the Sony Pearl with these images of the future. And the results were again, as seems common to SXRD, breathtaking. We can simply quote the Ruby test again: with optimized color temperature and the fine gamma factory preset an image depth is displayed on the screen which truly sucks one right in to the middle of the events. This is not a miracle, because with contrast ratios of 2200:1 up to 10000:1 (15000:1) the Pearl is one of the most contrast rich projectors ever built. Because of the exemplary black level and the good coloration, dark scenes exhibit an image depth only CRT projectors were capable of up to now. At the same time, the brightness of the projector is such that outdoor recordings are also believably bright. It is impressive to see the LCOS technology, thanks to Sony, shifting from one of the contrast weakest technologies to the strongest (at lowering prices).

But if that is not enough, as one of the first projectors on the market the VPL-VW50 uses the full HDTV resolution of 1920 x 1080 pixels. This enables the projector to achieve an astonishing level of detail with both DVD and HDTV. Especially with the latter it quickly becomes clear that doubling the 720p resolution is a definite step ahead. With full HD resolution, the last artificial lack of sharpness disappears from the screen. A very welcome side effect of the SXRD technology is the practical non-existence of the pixel structure. All pixels are so small and so close to each other that they become indistinguishable from very short viewing distances. What remains is a picture sharpness that is built on details, instead of artificial pixel boundaries like in other projection technologies. Many an untrained eye perceives this as "softer", but those who have seen both a sharp 70mm copy in the cinema and good HDTV material on the Pearl will have to agree that the natural sharpness of LCOS projectors is closest to both cinema original and reality with some distance.

In addition to the above, omitting all kinds of digital artifacts (no picture noise in the dark, no False Contour, no rainbow effect) gives the projected picture much more calm quality, which seems more uniform and natural to the eye.
Click to expand...
 
This part is interresting:
But if that is not enough, as one of the first projectors on the market the VPL-VW50 uses the full HDTV resolution of 1920 x 1080 pixels. This enables the projector to achieve an astonishing level of detail with both DVD and HDTV. Especially with the latter it quickly becomes clear that doubling the 720p resolution is a definite step ahead. With full HD resolution, the last artificial lack of sharpness disappears from the screen. A very welcome side effect of the SXRD technology is the practical non-existence of the pixel structure. All pixels are so small and so close to each other that they become indistinguishable from very short viewing distances. What remains is a picture sharpness that is built on details, instead of artificial pixel boundaries like in other projection technologies. Many an untrained eye perceives this as "softer", but those who have seen both a sharp 70mm copy in the cinema and good HDTV material on the Pearl will have to agree that the natural sharpness of LCOS projectors is closest to both cinema original and reality with some distance.
Click to expand...
I interpret this a noise reduction by eliminating the screen door effect.
This will benefit any signal (480p, 720p, 1080i).
 
london-boy said:
Good boy! And not only for replying to this thread, it took me a while to get all that info!!

Anyway, i have a question for you, and i have to ask because i have never tested them properly (as in, touching up the settings and in a room with proper lighting)...

How are black levels on these projectors? Since they use LCD technology, are these projectors as bad as scome LCD HDTVs at reproducing black levels? I would have thought they could be prone to the same issues as light would still come through the LCD screens when projecting the image, much like in normal HDTVs, resulting in "dark grey" instead of true black...

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Unless I'm mistaken, the 3000 is a DLP projector. Black levels are pretty good from what I can see, but my setup is not optimal yet (I will soon build a dedicated Home Cinema/console room in my basement, but for now I had to install the projector in a room under the roof, with less than ideal lightning). My current projection screen isn't that great either (will get a new, larger one for the final setup).
 
While pictures aren't ideal for showing projected images), here's a couple shots of my Z4:

That's just projected onto a white wall (~96 inches or so). Room is pretty light controlled, but by no means perfect.

Ambient light isn't that much of a problem, as long as it isn't shining directly on the screen. I watch football all the time on the weekends with some light, and it's more than watchable. I'll see if I can take some pictures with the lights turned up a bit as a comparison.

Black levels on this projector seem better than the black levels on my 37" LG LCD upstairs, even though the LG is only a couple months old, and I've had the Z4 for about a year.

The newer Z5 and Panny AX100 have better contrast and light output, with the AX-100 being really bright, and the Z5 having better black levels. I'm not too up to date on DLPs, cause I always see rainbows, and for some reason the DLPs never seem to have decent lens shift. When 3 chip DLP is under $2k, I'll be very interested again, though.

My plan is to stick with the Z4 until the 1080p PJs drop to around $2k. Then I'll get to research all over again. When I first started looking, I was going to get the Z2. By the time I got around to purchasing, it was 2 years later and I got the Z4. :)
 
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