240Hz, 360Hz+ (480-540-750-1000Hz) displays. Motion clarity
- Thread starter Cyan
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My understanding is that because of how OLED is manufactured, with the organic materials deposited on the substrate, there’s no way to completely avoid banding and other forms of colour non-uniformity. It’s especially prevalent at near black and at low brightness in my experience, and QD deposition adds to the issues.
So it’s a combination of OLED technology and content mastering (video and games alike).
So it’s a combination of OLED technology and content mastering (video and games alike).
What kind of content? In games? Lots of streaming video probably just has banding because of low bitrates for the resolution. I've seen banding in netflix near black and shadows on my tv. I don't think it should be an issue in games on an oled monitor.
Also, is this vertical banding? Or is it that kind of compression banding you get from video?
Like this?
Edit: I'm reading more and I guess this really is an issue on oleds.
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It’s gradient banding and also shows up in real-time rendered scenes. It’s not there when I look at test images though so I’m assuming it’s a content problem.
The other thing I noticed is that motion is a lot less smooth than my old IPS in some first person games. Panning the camera has this strobing effect. I knew the fast pixel response time would make individual frames easier to see but I expected the 240hz refresh rate to compensate for that. Some camera blur may actually be desirable in this case. Or maybe it’s better at 360/480 hz.
Motion clarity is definitely improved though. Target acquisition in first person shooters is a lot easier and I’m far from being a twitch gamer.
The other thing I noticed is that motion is a lot less smooth than my old IPS in some first person games. Panning the camera has this strobing effect. I knew the fast pixel response time would make individual frames easier to see but I expected the 240hz refresh rate to compensate for that. Some camera blur may actually be desirable in this case. Or maybe it’s better at 360/480 hz.
Motion clarity is definitely improved though. Target acquisition in first person shooters is a lot easier and I’m far from being a twitch gamer.
Does turning on motion blur in games alleviate this? Also does this strobing happen when gsync/VRR is turned off running fixed 240Hz?
Haven’t tried any games with camera blur yet, will look have to see if I have any. But yeah this is what camera motion blur was invented for. It’s definitely not VRR flicker which happens whether or not you move the camera.
In the Nvidia app there’s lots of banding in the marketing slides. This is in sRGB emulation mode. Does it look different for you guys?
In the Nvidia app there’s lots of banding in the marketing slides. This is in sRGB emulation mode. Does it look different for you guys?
It looks like that on my q27g3xmn. I took this from a slightly elevated angle where it is more obvious. From normal height I can still see it but it's not as noticeable. LCD stuff. This is in HDR mode. If anything I'd say yours has less banding.
BTW on this monitor I notice more flaws in content than I used to. When the black levels go to zero, the banding has nowhere to hide.
P.P.S. That is not my face reflected in the Modern Warefare III logo. That had me tripping for a minute but the image looks like that.
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I haven’t used the 1080p480 mode yet, but I plan to soon. So far I’ve mostly been down the rabbit hole of DP cable quality to get 4K240 working robustly, along with working on assessing and fixing some display controller issues in Navi31’s DCN3.2 Linux driver. Very little gaming yet, but that’ll change.
I’m using Fibbr DP2.1 DP40-rated (but not VESA-certified) active optical cables between GPUs and my KVM switch (Rextron PAAG-ET3124B), and Silkland DP80-rated VESA-certified copper between KVM and the LGs. That combo seems to work reliably with no dropouts.
I’ve got a sit-stand desk so the more flexible and longer active optical cables help with that (and are probably needed given the total length).
I think chasing VESA certified cabling doesn’t matter because it’s not a reliable barometer of quality. I tried some (very) bad certified CableMatters DP2.1 DP80 cables, and I also have some cheap-ish uncertified 3m DP1.4 HBR3 32.4Gbps cables from Maxonar that work just fine if they’re the only thing between the LGs and the GPU.
The uncertified Fibbr optical cables are highly recommended by Level1Techs, who sell branded versions of Rextron’s KVMs. They’re great if you need length. I picked the certified Silkland DP80 copper after watching a Monitors Unboxed video about this topic of VESA certification of modern high-bandwidth DP cables, and to be future proof, but I don’t think the official certification matters.
Even for my setup, where it needs to work over two cables through a KVM at 5m total, the right uncertified cables would work just fine.
I’ve got a sit-stand desk so the more flexible and longer active optical cables help with that (and are probably needed given the total length).
I think chasing VESA certified cabling doesn’t matter because it’s not a reliable barometer of quality. I tried some (very) bad certified CableMatters DP2.1 DP80 cables, and I also have some cheap-ish uncertified 3m DP1.4 HBR3 32.4Gbps cables from Maxonar that work just fine if they’re the only thing between the LGs and the GPU.
The uncertified Fibbr optical cables are highly recommended by Level1Techs, who sell branded versions of Rextron’s KVMs. They’re great if you need length. I picked the certified Silkland DP80 copper after watching a Monitors Unboxed video about this topic of VESA certification of modern high-bandwidth DP cables, and to be future proof, but I don’t think the official certification matters.
Even for my setup, where it needs to work over two cables through a KVM at 5m total, the right uncertified cables would work just fine.
If we are discussing qd oled, be good to know what source material you’re referring to.
When I’ve looked at content on Sony mastering monitors and qd oled, any banding issues were also present in the source material and equally present on the mastering monitors.
The color uniformity in 2nd and 3rd gen panels only exists for reds when near black and can be fixed by a 3d lut but not by 20 point as the percentages shown in the osd don’t align to actual values.
It’s an area where Samsung electronics needs to get their act together.
Man from Atlantis
Veteran
This is gonna be mostly a rant about LG 34GS95QE-B.
FYI I already have a 144Hz 34" ultrawide with a G-Sync module and accustomed to VRR and UW goodness. I'm quite disappointed that moving to the latest-gen MLA+ 240Hz WOLED felt like a downgrade
Apart from the deeper blacks, it didn’t impress me. Yes, deep blacks are great, but It doesn’t mean much if the color accuracy is worse—so much worse that it can’t even produce proper yellows, instead displaying a mustard-orange like fake yellow. I read this is inherited to all WOLED panels due to using white LED for brightness. Colors feel washed out, and adjusting the vibrancy settings doesn’t help. I used all ICC profiles you can find online and settings (Rtings, Techless and some other YT profiles).
If you plan to use it for work as well, text clarity is bad. You can still save some clarity with clear type settings and higher scaling but still clear type doesn't work on everywhere. Text might be fine at 200% scaling on a 27/32" 4K WOLED screen, but not on a 1440p ultrawide WOLED.
The rest of the annoyances aren’t inherent to OLED itself but rather to my LG screen. HDR is bad due to the vignette like effect due to uncontrollable dimming on the edges. It goes so worse that reds become brown, greens to black, as the screen dimms on the edges to keep up with the brightness level it can produce. It works mostly in dark games like Dead Space but fails in brighter ones like Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2. While the monitor has a nice swivel, aggressive 800R curve still felt too much for me—1500-1600R is more comfortable. The extreme curve also makes screen glare somewhat worse, reflecting light from left to right and concentrating it in the middle with more intensity.
On top of that, LG’s OLED matte coating is very grainy, almost like a film grain effect. Mostly you won't notice but, you can notice it in the skies in games or on white-background text. My trusty curved LG IPS screen’s matte coating didn’t have this issue. Hard to believe they’ve regressed so much in six years.
Some good things; stand is great and takes little desk space, wish more screens were like this. The stand holds the screen firmly and no shakes. Hexagonal back lights might be dim for others but I liked it as it is. It can be helpful against eyestrain if the screen is the only light source in your room. OSD menu and joystick is usual LG goodness and easy to figure out. Blacks are really black. Response time is superb. Difference between 144Hz to 240Hz is noticable. But no DLDSR at 240Hz with DSC. You need to use 144Hz without DSC to be able to use DLDSR. Overall build quality is alright. It has a mouse bungee for even left hand people. SDR content is fine, no brightness dimming on the edges. But if I'm gonna pay a lot I'd at least expect HDR content work well. OLED burn in mitigation features are handy and very useful. It does work automagically without breaking your routine. As soon as display goes to standby or have static content for some time it starts refreshing the pixels.
Needless to say, I returned the monitor, because apparently washed out colored WOLED screens are not for me. I will stick with my ultrawide IPS screen a little longer—maybe I'll pull the plug and order a 240Hz UW QD-OLED or wait until next year's UW QD-OLEDs with updated pixel layout and/or no magenta-purple like blacks when a light source shines on them.
FYI I already have a 144Hz 34" ultrawide with a G-Sync module and accustomed to VRR and UW goodness. I'm quite disappointed that moving to the latest-gen MLA+ 240Hz WOLED felt like a downgrade
Apart from the deeper blacks, it didn’t impress me. Yes, deep blacks are great, but It doesn’t mean much if the color accuracy is worse—so much worse that it can’t even produce proper yellows, instead displaying a mustard-orange like fake yellow. I read this is inherited to all WOLED panels due to using white LED for brightness. Colors feel washed out, and adjusting the vibrancy settings doesn’t help. I used all ICC profiles you can find online and settings (Rtings, Techless and some other YT profiles).If you plan to use it for work as well, text clarity is bad. You can still save some clarity with clear type settings and higher scaling but still clear type doesn't work on everywhere. Text might be fine at 200% scaling on a 27/32" 4K WOLED screen, but not on a 1440p ultrawide WOLED.
The rest of the annoyances aren’t inherent to OLED itself but rather to my LG screen. HDR is bad due to the vignette like effect due to uncontrollable dimming on the edges. It goes so worse that reds become brown, greens to black, as the screen dimms on the edges to keep up with the brightness level it can produce. It works mostly in dark games like Dead Space but fails in brighter ones like Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2. While the monitor has a nice swivel, aggressive 800R curve still felt too much for me—1500-1600R is more comfortable. The extreme curve also makes screen glare somewhat worse, reflecting light from left to right and concentrating it in the middle with more intensity.
On top of that, LG’s OLED matte coating is very grainy, almost like a film grain effect. Mostly you won't notice but, you can notice it in the skies in games or on white-background text. My trusty curved LG IPS screen’s matte coating didn’t have this issue. Hard to believe they’ve regressed so much in six years.
Some good things; stand is great and takes little desk space, wish more screens were like this. The stand holds the screen firmly and no shakes. Hexagonal back lights might be dim for others but I liked it as it is. It can be helpful against eyestrain if the screen is the only light source in your room. OSD menu and joystick is usual LG goodness and easy to figure out. Blacks are really black. Response time is superb. Difference between 144Hz to 240Hz is noticable. But no DLDSR at 240Hz with DSC. You need to use 144Hz without DSC to be able to use DLDSR. Overall build quality is alright. It has a mouse bungee for even left hand people. SDR content is fine, no brightness dimming on the edges. But if I'm gonna pay a lot I'd at least expect HDR content work well. OLED burn in mitigation features are handy and very useful. It does work automagically without breaking your routine. As soon as display goes to standby or have static content for some time it starts refreshing the pixels.
Needless to say, I returned the monitor, because apparently washed out colored WOLED screens are not for me. I will stick with my ultrawide IPS screen a little longer—maybe I'll pull the plug and order a 240Hz UW QD-OLED or wait until next year's UW QD-OLEDs with updated pixel layout and/or no magenta-purple like blacks when a light source shines on them.
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@Man from Atlantis I haven't done much research to see if there's a way to calibrate HDR in windows. You can buy colorimeters that can handle 3000 or 10000 nits now, like the Calibrite Display Pro HL and Display Plus HL. Just not sure how you take advantage of them. Do icc profiles affect HDR? These colorimeters won't be as good as a professional calibration with a spectraphotometer, but if your display has larger deviations from your target it will probably be a lot better. If you had a really well-behaved OLED display they might not help.
Man from Atlantis
Veteran
No ICC profile doesn't affect HDR, it's an SDR ICC profile. You can just create a HDR profile with brightness levels and saturation with Windows HDR calibration tool. I could be wrong but the profile is dictated by the HDR content/media unlike SDR.
At some point, I thought that if I could get proper colors like on my IPS display in SDR mode, I could brush off using HDR mode altogether. I kept the screen for about a week, hoping I would get used to the washed-out colors. However, every time I used the search function in Outlook, Excel and couldn't see a proper yellow, it reminded me of the problem, lol. The situation didn’t improve—colors still bothered me. Eventually, I decided, why go through the hassle? It wasn’t worth it.
TLDR, The main issues were worse colors in SDR, the monitor’s dimming profile, and still somewhat poor colors in HDR. The aggressive curve and oily/grainy matte coating were universally problematic.
The lack of colour accuracy is a bit of a problem on WOLED panels. I personally see the yellow issue only on the contrasting edge between yellow-ish pixels and those showing another colour (especially white), which does affect yellow text most of all.
I also don't particularly like the matte display either, having come from a pair of glass-fronted glossy Apple Studio Displays. It doesn't look washed out to me as such, just different, but I don't like the difference. Peak SDR brightness is quite low in normal productivity scenarios, and I've turned off the automatic brightness adjuster since that was driving me crazy even thought it doesn't get that bright to start with.
I still very much appreciate the increased refresh rate over the Studio Displays though. My perfect monitor is probably a 27" 5K240 proper RGB stripe OLED. Very fast, high pixel density, and none of the problems of WOLED or QD-OLED for text. I'm reading or writing text 95% of the time, but still want the responsiveness and interactivity benefits of a high refresh rate. I don't think that aspect of a display is just for games, it's excellent for normal desktop usage too.
I also don't particularly like the matte display either, having come from a pair of glass-fronted glossy Apple Studio Displays. It doesn't look washed out to me as such, just different, but I don't like the difference. Peak SDR brightness is quite low in normal productivity scenarios, and I've turned off the automatic brightness adjuster since that was driving me crazy even thought it doesn't get that bright to start with.
I still very much appreciate the increased refresh rate over the Studio Displays though. My perfect monitor is probably a 27" 5K240 proper RGB stripe OLED. Very fast, high pixel density, and none of the problems of WOLED or QD-OLED for text. I'm reading or writing text 95% of the time, but still want the responsiveness and interactivity benefits of a high refresh rate. I don't think that aspect of a display is just for games, it's excellent for normal desktop usage too.
arandomguy
Veteran
I'm not sure if it's entirely different than the situation with SDR. Windows ICC profiles are not universally but application dependent. Chances are your games were not color aware and making use of SDR ICC profiles either.
My monitor can't be calibrated in HDR mode. All the settings are disabled unless it's in SDR mode.
If I compare it to my secondary SDR monitor (or with itself in SDR mode) the colors do look different, but I have no idea which is more correct.