Apple is an existential threat to the PC

[Pressure]

Too bad they didn't have a M4 max version of Mac mini (probably too much heat for such small size), and the 64GB limit is also not really good enough for very large LLM. 273GB/s memory bandwidth is also not high enough. A 128 GB M4 Max (with double memory bandwidth) in a slightly larger case would be very nice for running a large LLM. Could even steal some business from NVIDIA I'd say.

It's a miniature computer starting at $599. We can safely assume LLMs wasn't a chief concern when Apple designed this computer. It comes with an integrated 155 Watt PSU (45 Watt is reserved for the three Thunderbolt 5 ports).

Have some reasonable expectations and grounded perspective

 

[arandomguy]

Does anyone have experience with a Mac mini without buying into the rest of the ecosystem? Thinking of getting one as a htpc for streaming, game streaming (4k120hz with hdr at 4:4:4), browsing, and light gaming (with windows games via things like crossover I guess). The pricing is very favorable against those Chinese brand mini PCs.

 

[Wesker]

It's a miniature computer starting at $599. We can safely assume LLMs wasn't a chief concern when Apple designed this computer. It comes with an integrated 155 Watt PSU (45 Watt is reserved for the three Thunderbolt 5 ports).

Have some reasonable expectations and grounded perspective

Agreed, and with a student discount this thing starts at $499. That is phenomenal value. Cough up the extra $200 for 512GB of storage (or stay with 256GB and get an external SSD), and this thing is easily one of the best bang-for-buck devices out there.

EDIT: Heck, if you're a College student and most of your stuff is streamed or on a cloud, then even the base $499 config is perfectly fine. You most likely have an iPhone with iCloud storage already, so you space for photos and videos should be fine.

EDIT 2: Just something I noticed on the spec page. The M4 mini has three Thunderbolt 4 ports on the back, while the M4 Pro mini has three Thunderbolt 5 ports on the back. Nice little upgrade for people who need multiple high-res displays.

 

[wco81]

Does anyone have experience with a Mac mini without buying into the rest of the ecosystem? Thinking of getting one as a htpc for streaming, game streaming (4k120hz with hdr at 4:4:4), browsing, and light gaming (with windows games via things like crossover I guess). The pricing is very favorable against those Chinese brand mini PCs.

What kind of HTPC software would you use on the Mac?

Or are you talking about just streaming apps, not necessarily media server and management software?

 

[pcchen]

It's a miniature computer starting at $599. We can safely assume LLMs wasn't a chief concern when Apple designed this computer. It comes with an integrated 155 Watt PSU (45 Watt is reserved for the three Thunderbolt 5 ports).

Have some reasonable expectations and grounded perspective

I was referring to the M4 Pro version, obviously. Apple reserved the Max version to Mac Studio previously and apparently they are doing the same this time. If the rumors are correct then we won't see Mac Studio with Max and Ultra chips for months, and that's disappointing.

 

[Wesker]

I was referring to the M4 Pro version, obviously. Apple reserved the Max version to Mac Studio previously and apparently they are doing the same this time. If the rumors are correct then we won't see Mac Studio with Max and Ultra chips for months, and that's disappointing.

I anticipate the MacBook Pro (launching today) to have Pro and Max chips.

 

[cheapchips]

What was going through Apple's mind with the power button placement on the M4 Mini? I assume they've either noticed that most Mac users just leave their Mini's in standby or have gone completely mad about hiding buttons.

 

[pcchen]

I anticipate the MacBook Pro (launching today) to have Pro and Max chips.

Yes. It'd be interesting to see how M4 Max looks like (probably something like 16P+4E and double the bandwidth). That'd be quite a monster.

 

[Pressure]

What was going through Apple's mind with the power button placement on the M4 Mini? I assume they've either noticed that most Mac users just leave their Mini's in standby or have gone completely mad about hiding buttons.

View attachment 12168

The standby power draw of these Apple Silicon SoCs are around 1 Watt.

There is just no reason to shut them down when standby is so efficient.

I was referring to the M4 Pro version, obviously. Apple reserved the Max version to Mac Studio previously and apparently they are doing the same this time. If the rumors are correct then we won't see Mac Studio with Max and Ultra chips for months, and that's disappointing.

The M4 Pro is still in the same miniature enclosure with the 155 Watt PSU regardless.

Yeah, I am waiting to upgrade my M2 Max Mac Studio ... so it's annoying to see all other machines get upgrades but the "big" and more expensive desktop computers are just relegated to the sidelines as generations pass by

I would personally have upgraded to the M3 Max if it was offered in the Mac Studio form factor but not now with everything else going to M4.

What I really want Apple to do is to make a real desktop class SoC because I am not worried about power draw. At least increase clock speeds on the desktop parts. The GPU is very conservatively clocked still.

The dream would be the option to pair the Mx Max SoC with an extra GPU tile (they could offer tiers at +$400-500 for 20-core GPU tile, +$600-700 for 40-core GPU tile and +$800-900 for 60-core GPU tile) as I don't need double the CPU cores, media engines, Thunderbolt ports or neural engine.

 

[pcchen]

What I really want Apple to do is to make a real desktop class SoC because I am not worried about power draw. At least increase clock speeds on the desktop parts. The GPU is very conservatively clocked still.

The dream would be the option to pair the Mx Max SoC with an extra GPU tile (they could offer tiers at +$400-500 for 20-core GPU tile, +$600-700 for 40-core GPU tile and +$800-900 for 60-core GPU tile) as I don't need double the CPU cores, media engines, Thunderbolt ports or neural engine.

It'd be nice to have a M4 Ultra of course A hypothetical M4 Ultra with 2 M4 Max would have like 32P cores and more than 1TB/s bandwidth. That should rival any desktop class CPU anywhere, although it's probably going to be quite expensive.

 

[arandomguy]

What kind of HTPC software would you use on the Mac?

Or are you talking about just streaming apps, not necessarily media server and management software?

I'll admit HTPC is just me trying make "youtube in the browser" machine sound more respectable.

In all seriousness that isn't far from the truth. I don't think there is a ready term for how I want to use a secondary (or really tertiary) living room PC.

I've been mainly looking for a way to get compact, efficient 4k120 game streaming that has enough forward looking features/capabilities to possibly drag over years (like a lot of years). And pricing wise compared to those chinese minipcs with something like a 6900hx or 7 series with HDMI 2.1 FRL the pricing is actually rather comparable.

 

[Wesker]

What was going through Apple's mind with the power button placement on the M4 Mini? I assume they've either noticed that most Mac users just leave their Mini's in standby or have gone completely mad about hiding buttons.

View attachment 12168

I can't remember the last time I've had to push the power button of my iMac.

 

[pcchen]

Unfortunately the M4 Max is only 12P+4E. That's just 2P more than M4 Pro. It still has double memory bandwidth than M4 Pro but only 2P core more is a bit disappointing.

 

[wco81]

What I really want Apple to do is to make a real desktop class SoC because I am not worried about power draw. At least increase clock speeds on the desktop parts. The GPU is very conservatively clocked still.

The dream would be the option to pair the Mx Max SoC with an extra GPU tile (they could offer tiers at +$400-500 for 20-core GPU tile, +$600-700 for 40-core GPU tile and +$800-900 for 60-core GPU tile) as I don't need double the CPU cores, media engines, Thunderbolt ports or neural engine.

If they put out another Mac Pro, that would be at least desktop class.

But the reality is that people aren't wiling to pay more for monster desktop performance, at least in the Mac ecosystem.

They may pay $4000 or more for a MacBook Pro but not a Mac desktop.

For me personally, the desktops would be more attractive if they upgraded the Apple Studio Display to high brightness (1000 nits) mini LED or tandem OLED with Pro Motion.


Speaking of $4000 laptops they should be announcing the M4 series MacBook Pros this morning.

 

[DavidGraham]

Unfortunately the M4 Max is only 12P+4E. That's just 2P more than M4 Pro. It still has double memory bandwidth than M4 Pro but only 2P core more is a bit disappointing.

Same CPU configuration as M3 Max! What are the gains? M4 Max also has the same GPU core count as M3 Max! I am expecting little performance improvements over M3 Max as a result!

The M4 Max is the one place where core counts haven't really improved over the last generation. This implies a less-impressive year-over-year jump

but it's worth noting that we still don't know the clock speeds for any of these cores or how the extra memory bandwidth might improve performance

Apple’s M4, M4 Pro, and M4 Max compared to past generations, and to each other

M4 and M4 Pro get core count bumps; M4 Max relies on architectural improvements.

arstechnica.com

 

[pcchen]

It looks like M4 is 10% ~ 15% faster than M3 in single core performance. Geekbench 6 numbers look much better probably because M4 supports SME, so it performs much better in specific subtests.
The 30% increase in bandwidth is nice, but that probably benefit GPU/NPU/vectors more.

 

[wco81]

So one thing I've heard is that the M4 MacBook Pros support HW decoding of AV1 codec but not encoding.

That might have implications for certain video chat software.

AV1 is relatively new but it may gain fast and wide adoption.

 

[Wesker]

If they put out another Mac Pro, that would be at least desktop class.

But the reality is that people aren't wiling to pay more for monster desktop performance, at least in the Mac ecosystem.

They may pay $4000 or more for a MacBook Pro but not a Mac desktop.

For me personally, the desktops would be more attractive if they upgraded the Apple Studio Display to high brightness (1000 nits) mini LED or tandem OLED with Pro Motion.


Speaking of $4000 laptops they should be announcing the M4 series MacBook Pros this morning.

Not sure about this.
I think there are still plenty of professionals and industries that would buy Mac Pro. But the current limitations of Apple Silicon make the purchase infeasible. For example, the inability to use discrete GPUs and the limited DRAM support options are just too limiting in some compute intensive applications.

128GB or 384GB of RAM is unprecedented for GPUs. But it's very limited for CPUs.

 

[wco81]

I don’t think Apple is interested in selling to data centers.

They tried and failed with XServe and they update the Mac Pro infrequently.

Mac Pro is for professionals who make their living on things like Photoshop, Final Cut and other art asset creation for photos and video, film industry, art directors, etc.

 

[Wesker]

I'm not talking about DC though. I'm talking more so about workstation and HEDT -- the customers in like industry and academia that used the old cheese grater Mac Pro under Steve Jobs. In my field, many have moved onto Linux and Windows, but they have expressed their desire for a Mac Pro that resembles the Mac Pro of yore.

The 2019 Mac Pro was a step in the right direction, but too bad that it launched on the eve of Apple Silicon, and it was wedded to Intel's platform solutions.

Apple Silicon is neat, but it needs *many* more CPU cores, RAM capacity, and dGPUs.

The fields you mention are being served -- extremely well, I might add -- by MacBook Pro and Mac Studio.