zidane1strife
Banned
Yes, it was also envisioned for a .1micron process back then...
What is the true spec of PSX3 CELL???
- Thread starter DeadmeatGA
- Start date
Yes, it was also envisioned for a .1micron process back then...
zidane1strife said:
Technically they were saying "under 100 nm" at the time, which I figure alluded more towards 90nm, but regardless doesn't the mean even more that if that was their plans THEN, and we see architecture and process improvements NOW, the transistor count will shift even higher?
(And if that was your insinuation then I apologize for misreading it, but your comment has some ambiguity and I'm forced to bring in flavors from other threads. ^_^;; )
Paul said:
My point is you shouldn't make such bold statments when they can be made about you.
His arguement may have no held water. But calling for a ban on anyone that doesn't say what you want to hear will leave you alone on this forum . Or at the very least Less than a handfull of people .
Paul said:
Paul i wouldn't be to sure of this . Most people on this forum are good people . They wouldn't go up to someone and tell that person they suck and no one likes them . I don't know how many people don't like u . I'm sure there are a few. I'm sure there are a few who do like you and a few who don't care. But I bet you will never see someone that doesn't like you go up to u and say what you say to others on this forum .
Don't hate the playa, hate the game. 
Megadrive1988
Veteran
ahem, moving forward,
with regard to transistor budget, sure we dont have an unlimited budget, but we have at least a 500M budget for the CPU, at the very least. and no reason why we can't have 50-100% more if need be. a 900M or 1 billion transistor chip in 2006 is not so unfathomable is it? not that PS3's CPU
will be 1 billion transistors, but it is not beyond possibility. though I would expect more like 500-700M trannies. the 64 MB of eDRAM plus 4 MB SRAM will put it up there, in the mid to high 100s of millions.
now, the GPU certainly has a possibility of going over 1 billion transistors. if we look at PS2's EE and GS, the EE has just 13M while the GS is something like 43M. thats a more than a 3:1 ratio of transistors. If PS3's CPU is just 500M transistors, can we expect 1.5 billion+ for the GPU? impossible?
with regard to transistor budget, sure we dont have an unlimited budget, but we have at least a 500M budget for the CPU, at the very least. and no reason why we can't have 50-100% more if need be. a 900M or 1 billion transistor chip in 2006 is not so unfathomable is it? not that PS3's CPU
will be 1 billion transistors, but it is not beyond possibility. though I would expect more like 500-700M trannies. the 64 MB of eDRAM plus 4 MB SRAM will put it up there, in the mid to high 100s of millions.
now, the GPU certainly has a possibility of going over 1 billion transistors. if we look at PS2's EE and GS, the EE has just 13M while the GS is something like 43M. thats a more than a 3:1 ratio of transistors. If PS3's CPU is just 500M transistors, can we expect 1.5 billion+ for the GPU? impossible?
DeadmeatGA
Banned
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To Paul
Think about it, all of those half a billion transistor chips are largely SRAM intensive(Itanium Medison, R500, nV50, Power5), logic gates take up 4~5 times the space of SRAM gates on the average and their density per mm2 is much lower. 36 processors represent lots of logic gates and I don't think even 0.065 micron processes can fit them all.
Let's separate fantasies from reality here.
To Megadrive
To Paul
No it doesn't. 4 CELL cores are still too many to fit into a chip fabricated on 0.065 micron. Each VU eats up as many gates as your low end general purpose CPU. To have 32 of those plus 4 PPCs and 4 MB of cache is a daunting task. Not even IBM's Power5+ can fit more than 2 cores per die, and this is a $2000 device we are talking about.
Think about it, all of those half a billion transistor chips are largely SRAM intensive(Itanium Medison, R500, nV50, Power5), logic gates take up 4~5 times the space of SRAM gates on the average and their density per mm2 is much lower. 36 processors represent lots of logic gates and I don't think even 0.065 micron processes can fit them all.
Let's separate fantasies from reality here.
He never said anything about disagreeing with me.
To Megadrive
That is if CELL has 20% logic gates and 80% SRAM gates. Even at 20% of total transistor count, logic gates will eat up half the silicon real estate due to their low density relative to SRAM gates. How are you supposed to fit 4 PPCs and 32 VUs in 25~30 million logic gates???
Actually, there is a hint of VU transistor count in GS3. Since both EE3 and GS3 should be of similar die size, GS3 trades in 16 VUs in exchange of 32 MB of eDRAM. How much transistors are 16 VUs then??? 400 million eDRAM transistors * 1/5th density = 80 million transistors, which is in line with my original assessment of 5~6 million transistors per VU.
I don't know if it is possible to fit 200 million logic gate transistors into a single die with 0.065 micron process. Unlikely.
DeadmeatGA
Banned
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If you forks really believe Sony can do things no others can, just look at GS and PSP. Why only 4 MB eDRAM on original GS? Because Sony couldn't fit more. Why only 12 MB eDRAM on PSP, a device that predates PSX3 only by a year? Because Sony couldn't fit more.
See, you have to make compromises in real life, and EE3 is no exception. If Sony somehow managed to 32 VUs into single die, then they won't be that powerful. Just look at "16 pixel engine" GS that gets blown away by 4 pixel pipe GeForce2Ultra...
If you forks really believe Sony can do things no others can, just look at GS and PSP. Why only 4 MB eDRAM on original GS? Because Sony couldn't fit more. Why only 12 MB eDRAM on PSP, a device that predates PSX3 only by a year? Because Sony couldn't fit more.
See, you have to make compromises in real life, and EE3 is no exception. If Sony somehow managed to 32 VUs into single die, then they won't be that powerful. Just look at "16 pixel engine" GS that gets blown away by 4 pixel pipe GeForce2Ultra...
DeadmeatGA
Banned
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Toshiba engineers stated that they used 5.5 million transistors to form two VUs of EE. Obviously, VU2s inside PSX3 will use a lot more...
IT'S A HANDHELD.
What do you think, they are going to shove 64mb of eDRAM onto the thing? Do you expect them to sell it at a loss of 400 dollars?
Compare the total memory of PSP and SP, PSP dwarfs it. I cannot believe you are complaining about 12mb eDRAM on a HANDHELD, 12mb is a HUGE AMMOUNT.
Re: ...
Ok, lets.
Which is 4 more than any other graphic IC - and this was done on a 250nm process.
Lets forget that PSP is a portable device with power, thermal and size requirements.
See, some people will get whatever answer out of the equation that they want. There is nothing that extraordinary that they're doing outside of controlling the process technology and developing around it - something some other people doesn't yet see the relevence of. But they will.
DeadmeatGA said:
Ok, lets.
Which is 4 more than any other graphic IC - and this was done on a 250nm process.
Lets forget that PSP is a portable device with power, thermal and size requirements.
See, some people will get whatever answer out of the equation that they want.
There is nothing that extraordinary that they're doing outside of controlling the process technology and developing around it - something some other people doesn't yet see the relevence of. But they will.DeadmeatGA
Banned
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How much has IBM invested in CELL anyway??? How does CELL affect IBM's bottom end? To IBM, CELL is nothing more than an OEM design contract. CELL will not make or break IBM. Think about it. Why is IBM still proceeding with Power5+ and BlueGene/L ASIC if CELL was so much better? Why use 65000 of BGL ASIC when 130 mere CELLs would match the performance??? Because IBM knows what you don't know???
What Sony is spending on fab capacity isn't much compared to fab leaders and this is what worries me. Heavy weights like Intel and Samsung spend far far more on their fabs than Sony does. How can Sony does things its bigger competitors cannot do with far less money???
And when did I say Cell would directly affect IBM? Initial investement was half a billion by IBM, Toshiba, Sony. Now Sony has thrown in another 2 billion towards Cell.
Sony doesn't make tons upon tons of different chips like Intel does. They have been planning to JUST mass produce cell at .65 nm for over 3 years, when you have little to nothing else to worry about and just a single chip, things get done.
Re: ...
Very few singular events will break a company the size of IBM or Intel. But it's obviously an important project which has been worked on by many of IBM's engineers (mostly Austin for the design, which is the core of talent in the company on a percentage basis). The core development team is composed of IBM engineers, as well as IBM who lead the project.
http://www-1.ibm.com/mediumbusiness/venture_development/emerging/sti.html
DeadmeatGA said:
Very few singular events will break a company the size of IBM or Intel. But it's obviously an important project which has been worked on by many of IBM's engineers (mostly Austin for the design, which is the core of talent in the company on a percentage basis). The core development team is composed of IBM engineers, as well as IBM who lead the project.
http://www-1.ibm.com/mediumbusiness/venture_development/emerging/sti.html