What if everyone could make video games ?

[patsu]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...4/2875-What-If-Everyone-Could-Make-Videogames

People in the game industry have been arguing for years: Are videogames art? We each have our own belief on that. But less arguable is that videogames are media. Games express messages and have the unique ability to inform and educate people in an interactive, engaging and entertaining way. How can we make their development and distribution simpler for everyone so that expression can come from more diverse sources?

BTW, what's Mark Deloura doing these days ? He left Ubi some time ago right ?

 

[slider]

Knowing absolutely nothing about game design, creation or anything at the nuts & bolts level I've often thought about a system where game creation would feel (to people like me) more creative.

How can we make their development and distribution simpler for everyone so that expression can come from more diverse sources?

Making their development and distribution easier is obviously a good thing but expression from more diverse sources?? I'm not sure that'd be a good thing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Knowing absolutely nothing about game design, creation or anything at the nuts & bolts level I've often thought about a system where game creation would feel (to people like me) more creative.

LittleBigPlanet seems the best possible approach with current tech. Prior efforts like SEUCK were more like tools than easy hands-on creation. However, creation isn't generally creative. In any art-work (excluding perhaps Modern Art) there are skills involved, and work that's not directly related to the art-work that are part of the creative process. Imagine most games out there now with the art assets created by ordinary folk with no artistic training...there's only so many stick-men games worth having Furthermore in the case of many games you will need scripting in some form, and that means assembling instructions. Whether you're typing them in or using Lego-style code pieces, you'll end up alienating much of the user base in their creativity.

 

[tabs]

I agree with all of the last post. (I was an avid SEUCK user back in the day).

Only solution I can think of relies of future technology. Robots, or devices that can draw, code and do all the other skilled stuff for people, perhaps based on 'intelligent' dissemination of spoken word input.

When it comes down to it, most people would want to be the designer of a game, not the one doing all the hard work. However after a swathe of poorly designed games, the wannabe designer would probably get bored, realising that the game design aspect also takes practice and experience.

 

[slider]

LittleBigPlanet seems the best possible approach with current tech. Prior efforts like SEUCK were more like tools than easy hands-on creation. However, creation isn't generally creative. In any art-work (excluding perhaps Modern Art) there are skills involved, and work that's not directly related to the art-work that are part of the creative process. Imagine most games out there now with the art assets created by ordinary folk with no artistic training...there's only so many stick-men games worth having Furthermore in the case of many games you will need scripting in some form, and that means assembling instructions. Whether you're typing them in or using Lego-style code pieces, you'll end up alienating much of the user base in their creativity.

I knew I'd draw you out and I knew you'd mention LBP!

I take your points though. And it was kind of what I was hinting at. That's why I said that thing about the process feeling more creative.

The creative process is such an interesting concept (I'm talking about any sort of art) - from initial spark to completion is such a long and complex journey. An artist chap I know forces himself to work and the few writers I've spoken to (or read about) say the same thing: Create, create, create (and edit later!).

OT: There's a fascinating book that's sort of related to this topic: The Mind in the Cave.

It seems as if elements of the scripting are removed with level creation on LBP. It's one of the reasons I'm so excited by it. Although it'll be interesting to see what sort of rubbish I, and many others, initially conjure up!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I knew I'd draw you out and I knew you'd mention LBP!

Hook, line and sinker!

I take your points though. And it was kind of what I was hinting at. That's why I said that thing about the process feeling more creative.

It seems as if elements of the scripting are removed with level creation on LBP. It's one of the reasons I'm so excited by it. Although it'll be interesting to see what sort of rubbish I, and many others, initially conjure up!

Free-for-all open game design I dare say is impossible, but LBP and others point to variations. If you provide a limited sub-set of components and a freedom with them, that'd satisfy creative gamer design without being too complex. Line Rider is a variation on user creativity. The original Worms on Amiga allowed users to create their own levels and that spawned different game experiences with tiny ledges or tunnel-digging gameplay that contrasted with the original gameplay principle. Various editors have allowed similar in other games, though often with extensive scripting needed.

Going forwards I can see the idea of LBP being extended. Imagine something like z-Brush that had users designing objects, and these objects interacting with the world through simple mechanics and behaviour simulation. In fact if you had a full character behaviour simulation engine with animation, you could basically provide a sand-box with people (or critters) and build a game into that with the engine handling the mundane but complex aspects to creating the whole world. A lot of the fundamentals of game design at the moment are working around limitations - do you have an open ended environment or a linear one? Do you allow free-roam climbing on any objects and create animations to fit, or limit climbing to certain apparatus? Do you have duck and cover and blind-fire, or leave those out? Without the technical limits to worry many games could be boiled down to tasks and equipment within an artistic setting. If the engine allows all human characters to make whatever lifelike choices and moves any real human could make, the difference between GTA and Fable and MGS would just be art direction and provided equipment. Where a long, long, long way from that sort of free world creation, but as we get closer, the scope for user created gameplay has to increase.

LBP is definitely going to be the test case for how much creativity the public gamer will actually use though. If user content remains mostly mundane, it'll prove the point that there's really not that much imagination out in the wild and it is best to leave designers to do their job as they're actually better at it than most!

 

[archangelmorph]

LBP is definitely going to be the test case for how much creativity the public gamer will actually use though. If user content remains mostly mundane, it'll prove the point that there's really not that much imagination out in the wild and it is best to leave designers to do their job as they're actually better at it than most!

Surely you don't need little big planet to prove that...?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't, but the industry probably does. Why are they banging on about Game 3.0 if most content is going to be drivel? They want to empower the public to create regardless of results. LBP will showcase what the public are really capable of. Plus it might not be that bad. If you look at the custom Lego models people create, there's some amazing things. Otherwise the plus-point is that where 90+% is no good, at least the minority get a chance to shine and entertain the rest!

 

[archangelmorph]

I don't, but the industry probably does. Why are they banging on about Game 3.0 if most content is going to be drivel? They want to empower the public to create regardless of results. LBP will showcase what the public are really capable of. Plus it might not be that bad. If you look at the custom Lego models people create, there's some amazing things. Otherwise the plus-point is that where 90+% is no good, at least the minority get a chance to shine and entertain the rest!

Best reply all day..

 

[Thorburn]

I remember the fun I used to have with Klik N Play and later The Games Factory.

I can't program to any kind of decent level, but they made creating simple 2D games easy and fun.

Klik N Play came out when I was 9 or 10 and I could easily make Breakout and similar little single screen games using the basic object types in a drag and drop fashion, using the step through event editor to play the game and define event actions as they occured. The standard event editor then let you tweak things further.

Ok nothing that would ever win awards, but some people have used them to create mildly interesting games, and its better than nothing.

 

[Mintmaster]

Otherwise the plus-point is that where 90+% is no good, at least the minority get a chance to shine and entertain the rest!

The thing is that's all you need. Quality design from 0.1% of users is enormous.

 

[inlimbo]

Going forwards I can see the idea of LBP being extended. Imagine something like z-Brush that had users designing objects, and these objects interacting with the world through simple mechanics and behaviour simulation. In fact if you had a full character behaviour simulation engine with animation, you could basically provide a sand-box with people (or critters) and build a game into that with the engine handling the mundane but complex aspects to creating the whole world. A lot of the fundamentals of game design at the moment are working around limitations - do you have an open ended environment or a linear one? Do you allow free-roam climbing on any objects and create animations to fit, or limit climbing to certain apparatus? Do you have duck and cover and blind-fire, or leave those out? Without the technical limits to worry many games could be boiled down to tasks and equipment within an artistic setting. If the engine allows all human characters to make whatever lifelike choices and moves any real human could make, the difference between GTA and Fable and MGS would just be art direction and provided equipment. Where a long, long, long way from that sort of free world creation, but as we get closer, the scope for user created gameplay has to increase.

this is exactly it, and exactly where game toolset development needs to head. but i don't think it's that far away. in fact, if i had more skill, it'd be in development right now.

what the modding community needs more than anything right now is a fully extendable crysis sdk. i hope it's coming soon. sandbox editor 2 is the closest thing we have to this idea, but imagine it being extended into something like garry's mod and then beyond. the best thing to enocurage laymen attempts at complex, 3d game development is to provide a toolset that allows any person to build a game and its assets entirely "in-game."

take the sculpting approach of z-brush but get rid of its ridiculous interface and allow users to model assets from a near fully interactive FPS engine. this is what has to happen and what i want to happen so badly. if i could get some semblance of a team together, like i said, i'd be doing it right now.

 

[itch]

This thread reminded me of Electronic Arts' old "construction set" games in the 80's. An updated Pinball Construction Set could make a really cool download title, especially if you could share the tables.

 

[Danalys]

well you can get visual pinball for the pc.

mostly my ideas for games involve things other than senarios. so the coding of unique behaviour and controls and AI would still be the hard part. i can't even conceive of a program that could make that easier.

 

[AzBat]

I think I still have an old copy of Adventure Construction Set for PC on 5.25" floppy somewhere. When I saw the ad in my game magazines I thought it would allow me to make a Gauntlet clone. LOL When I got it I was surprised to find out how complicated it was, but still wouldn't allow me to make a proper version of Gauntlet. Anyway, I could definitely get behind the same kind of tool. I might not be able to make a decent game, but it would be fun to play with and also see other people's imaginations run wild.

Tommy McClain

 

[PARANOiA]

Everyone's so positive about user-designed gaming. I agree there is the possibility for great content, but I imagine for every "good" game there will be a hundred terrible ones.

To an extent it reminds me of the mid-to-late 90's internet. All sorts of people were making their own web-pages using notepad-edited HTML or a free WYSIWYG tool like Frontpage or Netscape Communicator. What you had were thousands of pages devoted to people's pets and whatnot with midi files playing and animated gifs for backgrounds. Hell, I had a couple myself

The Doom mod scene was similar in a way, too... you'd pull down a hundred WADs in the hope you'd find a couple of great levels, but there was mostly poorly designed corridor scenes with the occasional porn pic in a secret room.

It'd be great to jump into a scene where users could make great stuff... but there's always a teething stage where weeding the gerberas from the garden is usually more painful that you'd think.

 

[Graham]

I remember the fun I used to have with Klik N Play and later The Games Factory.

I can't program to any kind of decent level, but they made creating simple 2D games easy and fun.

Klik N Play came out when I was 9 or 10 and I could easily make Breakout and similar little single screen games using the basic object types in a drag and drop fashion, using the step through event editor to play the game and define event actions as they occured. The standard event editor then let you tweak things further.

Ok nothing that would ever win awards, but some people have used them to create mildly interesting games, and its better than nothing.

Pretty much how I started. I remember booting win 3.1 to run K&P.
It was surprising though how average most K&P/GF games were, I didn't find many that really pushed the app like I was.
It is a good introduction to programming without requiring programming though.

The problem with most user content out there, is that the average person aims *way* too high, and gives up when they finally realise it - whereas a slow progression is far more productive. For the last time you can't make a MMO after skim reading sams teach yourself C++ in 24 hours!

The Doom mod scene was similar in a way, too... you'd pull down a hundred WADs in the hope you'd find a couple of great levels, but there was mostly poorly designed corridor scenes with the occasional porn pic in a secret room.

Even with the likes of counter strike and it's enormous (and mostly very high quality) user content community, the most popular maps are in house by a massive margin. (obviously they have an advantage)



Anyway getting totally off topic.
Anyone can make a game, as anyone can make art. But that doesn't mean everyone should make either.

 

[archangelmorph]

Anyone can make a game, as anyone can make art. But that doesn't mean everyone should make either.

Interesting point..

I would have to say that anyone *should* be able to make games.. However not everyone's going to be able to do what some of the best have..

IMO I have this philosophy that the situation is fine as it is.. If someone *really* wants to make games then they have every possible conceivable resource needed to both learn & begin practising.. The problem is most people don't have the time & energy needed to devote to even make something simple like tetris from scratch & so are looking for a solution which lets them make them "really easily"..

We're getting there with all thos Game 3.0 stuff & it's good because it provides an albeit very limited scope for "game(play) creation" & also makes the process "fun"..

Something that the fundamental approach to development "from scratch" doesn't always provide..

 

[Fox5]

Surely you don't need little big planet to prove that...?

I dunno, there are some darn good mods out there.
Less so recently however, but go back to the hey days of the PC when often times mods were better than the actual game, and occasionally even got picked up and sold as full games.

It's been a while since I've seen any good, creative mods though, even the good ones now generally fit into the generic WW2 or CS style mold. Come on, where's the Mario Party style mod for a first person shooter?
(honestly, there's only a handful of games I've played that had healthy mod communities that rivaled the straight play, the original quake and subspace did but made it easier since mods could often be downloaded straight to the players as they logged on or handled server side, and halflife and the ut series did)


I suppose it's probably harder to mod games now...ut3 should have helped with that but oh well.

People can make some very impressive art assests given the time though. Just look at what people have done with the lego block style ship editor of Galactic Civilizations, they've made everything from Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, and every other sci fi fiction to armies of ants and simpsons characters.

 

[wco81]

In any art-work (excluding perhaps Modern Art) there are skills involved

Oh no, you're not one of those, are you?