Want to Compile Code for Cell for use on Linux? Now you can....

[mistan]

Quote: o43

On this site:
http://www.bsc.es/projects/deepcomputing/linuxoncell/

GNU toolchain for CELL:
http://www.bsc.es/projects/deepcomputing/linuxoncell/gnu_for_cell.html

+libspe to use the spufs:
http://www.bsc.es/projects/deepcomputing/linuxoncell/software.html

and even the linux kernel patche for cell:
http://www.bsc.es/projects/deepcomputing/linuxoncell/linuxkernel.html

We are now able to compile code for cell!

Source: http://www.ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8165

Quote: udontneed2know

Well, nothing really to do with bugs in the architecture or anything like that, mainly to do with early adoption of the programming elements surrounding the architecture before the actual product hits the market.

For about a month and a half now we've been able to use the Virtual Cell System over at the IBM website which runs the Cell from a machine over at their palaces and lets you use that machine from your own, like a virtual emulator of the architecture. The machine to machine hit though is of course large, so the Cell we've worked with is only 1/100th the power of the actual Cell architecture, but from what I've been able to do its incredibly fast, and I do mean INCREDIBLY fast. Was able to pull off an arithmetic program that usually takes about 1/10th of a second on my machine here to run in full and only took 1/100000th of a second on the Cell virtual machine. And that was at 1/100th the actual power of the chip itself lol.

But by doing this IBM allows for programmers to right their own future Linux applications that will be compatible with the Cell architecture before the PS3 even hits, so when the system does hit it'll have a plethora of applications and tools at the ready. IBM and Sony just wants to give the base of the programming world a heavy go at this architecture in advance so when the chip actually hits the market in the PS3 programmers will be able to grab the PS3 and an HDD with Linux and begin building even more applications with pre-knowledge on how everything works. Using Linux as a base porting programming application was pretty brilliant because Linux is about 10 million lines right now, and gives most programmers a heavy understanding of how to port universal PC CPU code over to a multi-threading multi-core architecture like Cell. So when we get the PS3 and begin programming applications for the Linux PS3 we won't go " WHAT IN THE BLUE @#@$ IS THIS?!!?! " lol. And we'll be able to build programming tools and graphic programming applications and toolsets and such on our own pretty quickly. Theres already a group preparing to build high class G++ based compilers for Cell and RSX, actually already started on it in all actuality. Just need some more info on how the RSX works before it can be fully completed. OpenGL ES though will help matters along considerably, as will Collada.

Edit: And with the above things were now able to simply compile the code of our programs and make the compatible with a BPA / Cell architecture. So, programmers start your engines lol. These are the files we've been waiting for since June.

 

[Titanio]

I'm a little confused - is this an emulator for x86, or something to use to remotely compile and run code on an IBM machine?

Apparently emulators etc. are due by the end of the month. Maybe this is them coming early?

Unfortunately I can't download these or see what they're about - my PC is on its way to sleep I'll be building a new PC next week though, could be nicely in time to play with this

It'll be pretty frickin' sweet when we do have x86 emulators etc. Pair that with a G70 card and nVidia tools/Cg and you'll have a reasonable basis for early homebrew PS3 dev.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Cool, a Kernel patch for a Cell system. Now I need to get one of those Cell Blade servers

I'm a little confused - is this an emulator for x86, or something to use to remotely compile and run code on an IBM machine?

Thats what i'm confused on also. Its not like a regular person can get their hands on a Cell workstation. So it has to be some type of emulation, but why a kernel patch?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I read it as you write the code and run it over the internet on an IBM Cell machine, which sends the stuff back. Hence the statement the code you run will be 1/100th the performance of actually running on hardware directly.

 

[Carl B]

^^^
That's how I read it to.

 

[Titanio]

I read it as you write the code and run it over the internet on an IBM Cell machine, which sends the stuff back. Hence the statement the code you run will be 1/100th the performance of actually running on hardware directly.

This is what I'm thinking too. So can anyone do this - is it a public thing? Or do you need to arrange it with IBM privately? I guess it has to be private!

 

[BlueTsunami]

This is what I'm thinking too. So can anyone do this - is it a public thing? Or do you need to arrange it with IBM privately? I guess it has to be private!

If it isn't private, I would tinker around with this just for the hell of it. Its actually caught my interest. It seems like IBM would setup a couple of Cell Blade Servers that would be just for externel users exporting code to it or something. That would be pretty cool.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

from the quote from udontneed2know

IBM and Sony just wants to give the base of the programming world a heavy go at this architecture in advance so when the chip actually hits the market in the PS3 programmers will be able to grab the PS3 and an HDD with Linux and begin building even more applications with pre-knowledge on how everything works.

That suggests it isn't too exclusive, but I've no idea how they'd manage this, and Google disn't find me anything on 'IBM's Virtual Cell System' other than a computer simulation of biological cells.

Of course this does raise the question as to how software will be managed on PS3? If Linux homebrew really can access all the machine, whiat's to stop developers releasing software without paying Sony any royalties? Unless they have a limited content portal as the only way to download software (kinda like Live! arcade but for all software) open developer could seriously impact Sony's takings, no?

 

[BlueTsunami]

from the quote from udontneed2know
That suggests it isn't too exclusive, but I've no idea how they'd manage this, and Google disn't find me anything on 'IBM's Virtual Cell System' other than a computer simulation of biological cells.

Of course this does raise the question as to how software will be managed on PS3? If Linux homebrew really can access all the machine, whiat's to stop developers releasing software without paying Sony any royalties? Unless they have a limited content portal as the only way to download software (kinda like Live! arcade but for all software) open developer could seriously impact Sony's takings, no?

It seems to be that Sony is actually taking a LINUX stance on software managment also. Allowing it to fully be open (atleast I hope thats what it is). If not, and if they have dreams of actually controlling and having royalties being payed, then I don't know how Sony would be able to do that. If any person can created executable code on the PS3 then I'm with you how wondering how it will be managed.

Ugh, It will be great to see the first Cell virus to *roll eyes*. I would bet alot of money that theirs one person out there using this to make malicous code.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

It seems to be that Sony is actually taking a LINUX stance on software managment also. Allowing it to fully be open (atleast I hope thats what it is). If not, and if they have dreams of actually controlling and having royalties being payed, then I don't know how Sony would be able to do that. If any person can created executable code on the PS3 then I'm with you how wondering how it will be managed.

Ugh, It will be great to see the first Cell virus to *roll eyes*. I would bet alot of money that theirs one person out there using this to make malicous code.

How many linux viruses have you been infected with on x86 hardware?

Nite_Hawk

 

[BlueTsunami]

How many linux viruses have you been infected with on x86 hardware?

Nite_Hawk

LOL. Thats true. I forgot that this solely being done for Linux. Then all is well. But this being in the PS3 and all (brining it to the forefront) I wouldn't be surprised if their are attempts at doing this.

 

[Titanio]

Of course this does raise the question as to how software will be managed on PS3? If Linux homebrew really can access all the machine, whiat's to stop developers releasing software without paying Sony any royalties?

The market? I guess you'll need Linux on your PS3 to get such content, and that'll automatically cut out most of the market. There's also technical hurdles of downloading the games etc. etc, which would probably put people off.

I think and hope you will see commercial development though (not necessarily the Squares and EAs of this world, but I mean small groups selling their games for $10 or whatever). Sony could of course dictate that any software developed must be made freely available - thus removing any concerns about compromising the games licensing structure.

It would be nice if there was a portal for "normal" PS3 users, though, to access some selected homebrew content, a little like Xbox Live Arcade, as you suggest.

 

[Carl B]

It's not even games I care about with the independent Linux development; rather office suites, email clients, etc etc...

You know, fulfill the PS3--->computer promise.

 

[BlueTsunami]

It's not even games I care about with the independent Linux development; rather office suites, email clients, etc etc...

You know, fulfill the PS3--->computer promise.

I hope the Linux comunity is interested in Cell and ports alot of the apps over to the new architecture. If thats done, the PS3 will be a viable home computer where you can work on it as you would on Windows XP. Now connecting a printer and other peripherals of that nature...thats a little iffy. Hopefully driver hacks will be brought over to.

EDIT:

• OpenOffice

• Mozilla/FireFox

• Solitare

Thats all Sony would need to pre-load for it to be a working home computer

 

[MfA]

Of course this does raise the question as to how software will be managed on PS3? If Linux homebrew really can access all the machine, whiat's to stop developers releasing software without paying Sony any royalties?

They could use a code signed GPL library you have to link into your program to get it to run (GPL only mandates that the source is open, not that you can reproduce the compilation ... a bit of a weakspot, but would let you pull this off.) Would make sure only open source programs could be distributed.

 

[scificube]

This just sounds too cool. Um...that is all.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Would Sony have the right to gain royalties from programmers wanting to port/create code for the Linux/CELL OS? I'm not knowledgable about GPL but it would seem that profiting from Linux like that is somehow wrong. Although Red Hat does it, but just for support of the Red Hat OS.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

They could use a code signed GPL library you have to link into your program to get it to run (GPL only mandates that the source is open, not that you can reproduce the compilation ... a bit of a weakspot, but would let you pull this off.) Would make sure only open source programs could be distributed.

That's true... I could see a mixed "closed source with royalties / opensource without royalties" type system working very well for sony:

1) Most of the open/free software is the kind of software that people probably wouldn't pay for (so not much lost revenue).

2) Someone else will do most of the work porting/writing the free software so Sony has to expend minimal money to get it on the system.

3) They still get to collect royalties on games as it is rather difficult to write free/opensource games due to the experience needed for art assets/sound/etc.

Seems like a win/win situation for them.

Nite_Hawk

 

[skilzygw]

Seems like their aspirations as a home computer really are coming true. I would definately buy the hard drive if i could run linux on it. Port over some of the more well known apps, open office anyone, Sun are you listening? Mozilla you out there?

Then again a whole PC for 400-500 bucks. Wouldn't they want a bigger markup if they where selling as a pc?

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Would Sony have the right to gain royalties from programmers wanting to port/create code for the Linux/CELL OS? I'm not knowledgable about GPL but it would seem that profiting from Linux like that is somehow wrong. Although Red Hat does it, but just for support of the Red Hat OS.

They couldn't distribute their Linux/Cell code if they tried to change the license to something non-GPL. The basic idea is that if they use GPL code to make Linux/Cell, the code that they write also must be distributed under the GPL. This basically means that to whoever they distribute a binary of the product, they must also distribute the sourcecode. It does not however, mean that they need to make their derivative available to anyone who wants it.

Basically the GPL is a way to make sure that if you take my work which I've made available to you, enhance or extend it, and redistribute it, you must distribute my original sourcecode along with the changes you have made. It prevents you from profiting from my work while denying others the same opportunity.

Having said this, they could do something sneaky like use DRM to only run authenticated/certified GPL programs and charge for authentication. In this case, the GPL can't help because the code is still GPL, the PS3 just won't run it unless a valid authentication key is distributed with the binary. I could see someone trying this at some point now that DRM is becoming so common in hardware. It's actually a nice feature if *you* control the DRM keys, (so you can allow or disallow software from being run on your computer based on what kind of authentication it can provide).

It's not so great when someone else has that control over your hardware.

Nite_Hawk