Vista Sound New Sound Stack

P

pakotlar

Banned
Amazing difference. I'm just comparing a few high quality mp3's between vista and xp. I have pretty good speakers. Setup is as follows:

Onkyo reciever, TX something or other, 75rms/channel (6 total), was top end onkyo when I bought it.

CSW Model Six Bookshelf Speakers
Bass Cube 10
+ surround + center (don't matter for this disc.)

Anyways, using a Audigy 2zs (not the best I know), the difference in sound quality is phenomenal. Creative has an unusually mucky,muddy sound reproduction, and man, can I tell you, whatever the problems were caused by creative's hardware acceleration under xp (sound in vista is run in software) are totally fixed here. Bass is much more responsive and punchier, seems to reach lower too. Mid's and High's totally improved. The whole package is more responsive, cohesive, smooth. Jazz sounds phenomenal. Has a much more immersive, 3d sound. More depth is what I'm saying.

Share your experiences!

P.S: So far, I'm enjoying Vista a great deal, and compared to XP it actually seems smoother in some situations. Just downloaded the Dreamscene content pack, and using the Bee/sunflower one. Absolutely stunning. Only on single core too!
 
Hmm with that sort of equipment I'm surprised you notice an improvement, the sound stack normally only improves the sound noticeably for people with integrated chips on mobos. But yeah I just switched to vista business and I'm loving it, so much better than XP in so many ways.

EDIT: I did a search on dreamscene but couldn't find a dl link and windows update doesn't seem to show any options.. is it vista ultimate only?
 
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Freak'n Big Panda said:
Hmm with that sort of equipment I'm surprised you notice an improvement, the sound stack normally only improves the sound noticeably for people with integrated chips on mobos. But yeah I just switched to vista business and I'm loving it, so much better than XP in so many ways.
Click to expand...

Yeah, immediate and noticeable improvement. I got used to XP sound quality, and I remember when I first transitioned I noticed the same thing. Been using XP for a while now, and the 2nd time around was more noticeable because I was looking for it. I'd say the biggest difference was in the handling of the bass, it goes much deeper. Crossover is a bit high at 75hz (lowest on this model Cube 10), but it is well matched with the speakers, so it actually transitions very smoothly. On xp, it would boom more, and it seemed like creative's drivers did something with the response curve, because the subwoofer struggled way more than it should've. Mid's and Upper range sounds are just a bit more detailed.

You know what it is, I was used to pretty good sound under xp, and this just added a bit extra on the cake.

I think that the difference would be significantly less pronounced had I been coming from Xi-Fi or Revo. Even Audigy 4 drivers on the 2zs under xp produced nicer quality than 2zs drivers, which further muddies up the source of the problem, as I'm not sure there is any empirical evidence of tighter response on 2zs cards. That's another discussion.

Listening to Damien Rice, Cheer's Darlin and Older Chests sound phenomenaly better. The first for bass response, some mid and up. detail, older chests primarily for mid detail. I mean in the latter its a huge difference, I'm hearing sounds that were absolutely not there under xp. Placebo is possible but unlikely.
 
Try turning off the 3D speaker features in the Audigy 2's driver settings on XP. Also, are you sure you have disabled the environmental audio settings?
 
Bludd said:
Try turning off the 3D speaker features in the Audigy 2's driver settings on XP. Also, are you sure you have disabled the environmental audio settings?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah of course, I'm no novice to XP, Creative drivers, or PC's in general. Audigy 2zs music quality is well known to be awful in comparison to decent solutions like Revo 7.1 or Xi-Fi. It seems that by doing all the processing/sampling in software, Vista not only gives the user greater control, but better quality in some cases.

Btw, this is definetely not just a re-sampling issue. The difference between upsampling to 48khz from 44.1 and native 44.1 is not large enough for me to notice on my setup. This is something else entirely. I've browsed around, seems like some other users have noticed the same improvement in sound quality.

edit: I've never used any sort of EAX effect or CMSS effect because they all futz with the source material. Never sounds better to my ears. The only slightly interesting version is CMSS for 5.1 stereo, which seems to change the Bass phase, and the effect is that it feels like it thumps under ur ass. Pretty damn cool.

I'm not sure if Audigy 2zs still samples at 48khz on output anymore. I'd guess that it still converts to 48khz before output. That is still however 1 fewer conversion step. I have my sound sampling rate at 24bit/44.1khz in Vista. It will accept a native 44.1khz rate, and send it Audigy 2zs to output. I believe it is then converted to 48 and outputted.


My best guess would be that the difference I'm hearing is the lack of processing/resampling on Creative's hardware. Its' probably just being used as an output device, unless it recieves openAL calls via the Alchemy wrapper.
 
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I used to have an Audigy 2, but I didn't really notice an huge improvement in music sound quality when I upgraded to an X-Fi.

I think you should try to make some recordings of this and post them so you can have this verified by more people, or something.
 
The new sound stack is my favorite thing about Vista in actual use. I wish I could get that level of quality under XP because I'd rather stick with it. It does better as a pure gaming OS at this time.

BTW does anyone know of a software sound processing suite that could be used under XP that would give near the same quality for listening to CDs?
 
Bludd said:
I used to have an Audigy 2, but I didn't really notice an huge improvement in music sound quality when I upgraded to an X-Fi.

I think you should try to make some recordings of this and post them so you can have this verified by more people, or something.
Click to expand...

U know, I dont' have any experience with recording, I mean I would do it if it could be done internally, but then I don't know at which stage it is being recorded and that could impact the effect. If someone knows how I'd be happy to.
 
I agree. The new sound stack is better - there is a huge difference with my Realtek HD on-board sound. I sounds soooo much better in Vista.
 
Blacklash said:
The new sound stack is my favorite thing about Vista in actual use. I wish I could get that level of quality under XP because I'd rather stick with it. It does better as a pure gaming OS at this time.

BTW does anyone know of a software sound processing suite that could be used under XP that would give near the same quality for listening to CDs?
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You need different hardware in XP to perform the same thing. However, if you want to listen to CDs in their "pure" sound format, you might go looking for an old-school four-wire audio cable to connect your CDROM to your sound card. Remember back in the days where you had that little black connector with the thin-ish grey cable that connected your CD player to your sound card (seperate from the data cable)? Find one of those, and you'll have analog audio direct from the CD DAC to the amp on your sound card. That might bypass some of the "mucking" that XP otherwise would do with the digital audio extraction...
 
did you try the KX driver? (for SB live and audigy). it's a freeware driver for 2000/XP that seems to focus on quality and low latency, plus there's some weird DSP routing shit I can't get quite working (it should allow me multiple independant stereo outputs), at the cost of no EAX support but I don't care at all (even though I game)
I installed it anyway when I got that particular audigy 1 because of bad experiences with creative labs drivers (like, how do you get them in the first place for win9x :rolleyes: )
 
Blazkowicz said:
did you try the KX driver? (for SB live and audigy). it's a freeware driver for 2000/XP that seems to focus on quality and low latency, plus there's some weird DSP routing shit I can't get quite working (it should allow me multiple independant stereo outputs), at the cost of no EAX support but I don't care at all (even though I game)
I installed it anyway when I got that particular audigy 1 because of bad experiences with creative labs drivers (like, how do you get them in the first place for win9x :rolleyes: )
Click to expand...

Yeah KX was good for Xp too.
 
Well, if Microsoft is to be believed about how the new sound stack is designed, then I was correct in saying that you'd need specialized hardware on XP to meet the same latency (sub-1msec) and floating-point sampling capabilities (all sounds internally capable of being sampled at FP32 precision.)

Not sure how accurate that is, but they'd know better than me...
 
Nah, you just need the right setup in XP to get the same effect:

-> ASIO-compliant production quality sound card (I've got a couple M-Audio interfaces)
-> ASIO-compliant software (I use Sonare 6 PE)
-> Good monitors (I have a set of Fostex active studio monitors)

Sure, I have a "low end" DAW, but it sounds wonderful when you're sitting in the sweet spot.

Those who are truly musically inclined won't use a consumer receiver for amplification, but will probably use a "real" set of studio monitors. Say a Genelec, Tannoy, or ADAM powered pair. Keep in mind, we're talking $5,000. Each.

I know there are "audiophiles" that pay much more than that for an "ultimate" sound reproduction system. However, what they are paying for is their own feeling that they're getting something better. The biggest professional studios don't buy that audiophile overpriced claptrap.

Anyhow, if you get the urge, try looking through the studio monitors and computer audio interfaces at Sweetwater.com, or Sam Ash, or Musician's Friend. It's a real eye (and ear) opener. ;)
 
Oh, and while I'm being elitist... ;) If you really want loud you should check out the live sound amplification systems. Who wants a crappy Kenwood sub in their house when you could get a massive Hartke bass loudspeaker with four 10" aluminum cones! (I know, not the same sound or coloration or effect... but still impossible for your buddy to compete with professional sound reinforcement!)

And keep in mind that loudspeakers aren't that good in living rooms. (Typically.) Unless you get something like those "lounge"-size JBL performance systems or something similar. For personal listening you just can't beat a good pair of studio monitors.
 
flf said:
Nah, you just need the right setup in XP to get the same effect:

-> ASIO-compliant production quality sound card (I've got a couple M-Audio interfaces)
-> ASIO-compliant software (I use Sonare 6 PE)
-> Good monitors (I have a set of Fostex active studio monitors)
Click to expand...

I think I just got done saying you'd need specialized hardware under XP to do the same thing in Vista... So... yeah?
 
Listening to some music today at loud volumes. Anyways, the sound is superlative. Bass phase (0-180 degrees) actually has an effect under Vista! Creative's drivers under XP funked with Bass so bad that phase did nothing. Listening to pretty much anything is revealing new detail. I turned down my bass a bit, and it has tightened up so much its sick. My sub is in a horrible location (poor layout in the room) and the bass still rocks. I was listening to "ends" by everlast, some black eyed peas, elliot smith, and all were awseome. I actually realized that in "el manana" by gorillaz, the bass line has a variable modulation going on, that subtly rolls back and forth. It actually affects the tone of the song quite a bit. Under xp, I wasn't getting enough detail to hear that. That's pretty bad. I feel like I have a new sound system tbh.

The sub def reproduces mid range 40-75 hz a hell of a lot better. And I can attest that it is hitting the max reproduction of this sub (~30hz I believe) very tightly. No booming, just finely detailed shaking under my ass.
 
Albuquerque said:
I think I just got done saying you'd need specialized hardware under XP to do the same thing in Vista... So... yeah?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call a sound card that supports ASIO "specialized", I thought the Audigy's did support this, I know certainly the X-Fi's do, and then the vast majority of other $50+ sound cards do as well.
 
I do believe that all the audigy cards have ASIO drivers as well, although you can run Sonar in WDM mode insteady of ASIO. The benefit of ASIO is that it's all self-analyzing with regard to knowing exactly how big the buffers and latencies are. When running in WDM mode you have to play with the buffer/latency in order to get the performance you want without pushing too far into dropout land.

Side note: USB audio interfaces do *not* get my recommendation for any heavy audio. I've tried, I really have, but it has always been frustrating. Either go PCI/PCIE or Firewire to avoid the headaches.

Nice to know that Vista cleaned up the audio handling internally. However, I'm still waiting until SP1 before jumping ship... my memories of adopting Windows 2000 prior to drivers being ready for prime time still haunt me.
 
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