VF4:Evo!
- Thread starter Deepak
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I’m not trying to get your thread of topic Deepak (although it really doesn’t look like its meaty enough subject to continue long 
), but reading the VF4: Evo review got me thinking about the subject of interlace, and 30fps vs. 60fps again. That was the subject of a discussion, on a Danish forum some time ago.
The discussion was about whether/why it is beneficial to have a full front buffer, and also about Dreamcasts interlace-field lineblending HW-feature.
It was never really concluded satisfyingly, so I thought I would bring the question to some real experts (that’s here, if anyone was wondering )
My query is this: The heavy aliasing found in VF4 (corrected in VF4: Evo) and many other PS2 games, is due to slight horisontal displacement of the interlace fields, because the GS only renders the lines that the TV needs, right now, in the 640x240 interlace field, to save VRAM . So that’s why jaggies get enhanced, right?
But why? Why should it get better if your game is running at full front buffer? If the game is running at 60fps like VF4 and many other jaggilisious PS2 games does, you would still inevitably get a displacement of the fields, even if rendering a full frame of two fields per frame/field (and then throwing one field away), because at 60fps, every frame is a 640x240 field.
Is it because of lineblending that some games seem to look better than others? That wouldn’t explain why even some 30fps game is also plagued by aliasing, because the interlace fields should fit together in that case, because they are from the same frame.
In short, what is the real advantage of rendering a full 640x480 frame, when all you really need is a 640x240 field-frame?
), but reading the VF4: Evo review got me thinking about the subject of interlace, and 30fps vs. 60fps again. That was the subject of a discussion, on a Danish forum some time ago.The discussion was about whether/why it is beneficial to have a full front buffer, and also about Dreamcasts interlace-field lineblending HW-feature.
It was never really concluded satisfyingly, so I thought I would bring the question to some real experts (that’s here, if anyone was wondering
)My query is this: The heavy aliasing found in VF4 (corrected in VF4: Evo) and many other PS2 games, is due to slight horisontal displacement of the interlace fields, because the GS only renders the lines that the TV needs, right now, in the 640x240 interlace field, to save VRAM . So that’s why jaggies get enhanced, right?
But why? Why should it get better if your game is running at full front buffer? If the game is running at 60fps like VF4 and many other jaggilisious PS2 games does, you would still inevitably get a displacement of the fields, even if rendering a full frame of two fields per frame/field (and then throwing one field away), because at 60fps, every frame is a 640x240 field.
Is it because of lineblending that some games seem to look better than others? That wouldn’t explain why even some 30fps game is also plagued by aliasing, because the interlace fields should fit together in that case, because they are from the same frame.
In short, what is the real advantage of rendering a full 640x480 frame, when all you really need is a 640x240 field-frame?
Squeak said:
The cool thing is with a full-frame front buffer is that you're NOT throwing away anything!
Rather, the hardware averages two lines from the full-size buffer at a time and outputs them as if they were a single line, filling up the entire 240-line field each 60th of a second (assuming NTSC). This gives a smoother, much less flickery look. This also lets the console handle hitches in framerate more gracefully than the field-rendering approach.*G*
Nothing has to be said but this: $20
It made even Fistful of Boomstick great, and it makes THIS game fan-frickin'-tastic!
It made even Fistful of Boomstick great, and it makes THIS game fan-frickin'-tastic!
Tagrineth said:Squeak, it's because of how the TV receives the signal, how the flicker filter works (flicker filter is the BIG issue - if it's blending the lines with BLACK, it isn't really going to work too well
Oh, so its just som kind of 2x vertical AA?
Is that really the single reason for the DCs good IQ?
In the cutsenes it seems the faces a AA'd excellently, but if there is a cutscene showing the characters from further away, it is often not very good. Example: The mall scene just before going to the subway.
I don't know if it is my telly or PS2 going kaput, but on my third play through the image quality seems to have gone somehow worse :? Filters are still noise on and not sharp, but it's almost as if there seems to be more aliasing or something.
What's funny is that I think some of my other games have been losing their flair too; I played Gran Turismo Concept: Tokyo - Geneva which I've always considered to be the absolutely best looking game on any platform, it looked almost if the car models had lost some of their detail and it even seemed sometimes to run less than 60 fps!!!
Have I just become so accustomed to these games, that only now I begin to see the errors?
Can it be that if my PS2 is running on its last legs and is no longer able to cope with all the effects in games.
Is my 52" RPTV in need of adjusting.
Do I need glasses?
Am I going bonkers?
and no, I haven't been exposed to xbox!
I don't know if it is my telly or PS2 going kaput, but on my third play through the image quality seems to have gone somehow worse :? Filters are still noise on and not sharp, but it's almost as if there seems to be more aliasing or something.
What's funny is that I think some of my other games have been losing their flair too; I played Gran Turismo Concept: Tokyo - Geneva which I've always considered to be the absolutely best looking game on any platform, it looked almost if the car models had lost some of their detail and it even seemed sometimes to run less than 60 fps!!!
Have I just become so accustomed to these games, that only now I begin to see the errors?
Can it be that if my PS2 is running on its last legs and is no longer able to cope with all the effects in games.
Is my 52" RPTV in need of adjusting.
Do I need glasses?
Am I going bonkers?
and no, I haven't been exposed to xbox!
RTG syndrome?
I know what you're insinuating, but I don't think I've heard the acronym before. Hehe...
I know what you're insinuating, but I don't think I've heard the acronym before. Hehe...
Nah, don't believe it could happen overnight.notAFanB said:heh it's really just this
and a combination of rose-tinted-glasses for some older titles.
Must be my telly, I just did some convergence adjusting from the service menu the other day. The picture looked perfect after adjusting, but now the convergence seems to have wandered off on it's own, I see it also on tv programs and dvd's as a red or blue halo effect in various parts of the screen :/
And the GT:C slowdowns, it only seems to happen on Tokyo track replay, on the main straight when the cam is high. It looks more like heat haze effect than slowdown.
I have NO RTG syndrome! PS2 GraphiX StiLL RoK
Back to topic: I haven't played VF4: Evo, but own VF4. So can not comment on it other than I hope the jaggiez have gone away.
Tagrineth said:
It does look great I must say. What do you think is the reason; what have they done different than others?
Maybe its just that the game is so simple, that it was possible to turn on FSAA without performance hit?
Continuing in the same line of thought (cheap AA effects), maybe it would be possible to do AA on the other length of the screen, where its really most needed to remove jaggies, by rendering in a 1280x240 backbuffer, then downsampling it to 640x240 and then rendering the other half in the same way. Of course this would use ~ half a megabyte more than just flickerfiltering, but then you would get pretty good AA with only half the cost of regular 2x AA.
Super Smash Bros Melee's flicker filter doesn't seem like AA to me, at least the AA on my computer doesn't blur the image that much. What kind of AA does gamecube use?(btw, I think it's impossible for the gamecube to do more than 3x AA due to lack of memory, well, maybe 4x could be done with 16 bit color)
Squeak:
I'm referring to going into Melée's options menu, choosing Display, and comparing the flicker filter ON and OFF. The resolution definitely doesn't change.
GC supports 640x480x24(/32) or 640x240x16 with 3x vertical AA. The only game I know of that actually uses the AA mode is Mickey's Magical Mirror (my stepdad got it, he's an extreme animation nut, especially Disney).
I'm referring to going into Melée's options menu, choosing Display, and comparing the flicker filter ON and OFF. The resolution definitely doesn't change.
GC supports 640x480x24(/32) or 640x240x16 with 3x vertical AA. The only game I know of that actually uses the AA mode is Mickey's Magical Mirror (my stepdad got it, he's an extreme animation nut, especially Disney).
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