SUVs? Nah...computers are the real environmental threat

[Joe DeFuria]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14571

So, how long will it be before the greens demand that the gov't put limits on when and to what we can upgrade our computers to?

 

[Tagrineth]

Unless you're multimedia crazy or a gamester, an 8MHz AST 286 machine should be more than enough for you.

Yes, let's all return to using DOS while we're at it... or does Windows 3.1 work on a 286? I know Win95 won't...

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

You've got to be kidding?

Computers lasting more than 15 years?
...and maybe Carmack can go back to the days of developing games for DOS.

Maybe we should all go back to the stoneage. Hey, at least we'll be doing more for the environment by hunting, foraging, gathering and talking in Ugga Bugga.

 

[Clashman]

I actually think this is starting to become a significant problem. When I got my current computer, (summer 2000), power supplies topped out at 300, maybe 350 watts. It is not uncommon now to find 400-500 watt PSUs, especially in the enthusiast market. That's a huge increase in general power consumption, something that needs to be cut back on in some ways, preferably through more elegant engineering. I think my next computer will either be SFF at around 200-230 watts PSU or a laptop, to try and cut down on energy consumption a bit.

Frankly though Joe, the Republicans want to place limits on who people can fuck and/or marry. So tell me, here, who's being more frivolous?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Frankly though Joe, the Republicans want to place limits on who people can fuck and/or marry. So tell me, here, who's being more frivolous?

Aww....don't wwant to keep this on topic, Clashy-washy?

 

[Blade]

Heh, I'd like to see Carmack return to DOS and the world of software rendering after what he's accomplished in 3D in the past decade..

....

Well, not really. You have to admit it'd be cool to see the limits of DOS exploited to their full potential.

Or, do you guys think he already did that with Quake? Hmm?

 

[Clashman]

Aww....don't wwant to keep this on topic, Clashy-washy?

You say that as if your original post about the Greens was anything but flame bait anyways. Admittedly, I fell for it, and for that I apologize. But that wasn't really my point anyways, Joe, and you know that. I made a post that did in fact directly address the issue of increasing power usage of today's PC's, which you chose to ignore. Now, if we can dispense with the lame-assed insults disguised as pet names, maybe we could actually get back on topic instead of just making pretences at doing so.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Apology accepted.

 

[zurich]

Unless you're multimedia crazy or a gamester, an 8MHz AST 286 machine should be more than enough for you.

Yes, let's all return to using DOS while we're at it... or does Windows 3.1 work on a 286? I know Win95 won't...

Actually Win 3.1 won't work on a 286 That pissed me off back in the day.. hehe

 

[kyleb]

as much as i hate to admint it, they do have a point.

 

[Legion]

more from the antiprogress loons.

 

[Heathen]

When 'those boffins at the UN' get a real job maybe I'll bother to listen but until then the NV40 & R420 are coming soon and I've got £500 burning a hole in my pocket.

PS: Just look at the benefit to the economy we provide constantly upgrading.

 

[akira888]

First they came for the SUV drivers,
and I didn't speak up since didn't have an SUV.
Then they came for the leaf-blower owners,
and I didn't speak up since didn't own a leaf-blower.
Then they came for the aerosol can users,
and I didn't speak up since didn't use an aerosol can.
They they came for the computer geeks,
and then by that time there was no left to speak up for me.

(Apologies to Ftr. Martin Niemoller)

Seriously, did anyone think that the green loons wouldn't come for us one day? As is always the case, this is just the beginning, it always starts out with a "request" and then it just works its way from there until there's nothing any one can do. The main usages of power are climate control, washing/drying, and industrial - home PCs are absolutely minimal as a percent of total electricity consumption. This is just another offensive in the primitivist coalition's war against modernity, which sadly has some adherents even here it seems. And this time they're going to strike at the object which is the very symbol of information society itself...

 

[kyleb]

you obviously didn't read the article, akira.

 

[akira888]

you obviously didn't read the article, akira.

That's how these things start - slowly, innocently and quietly. But the end result is identical in case after case - the dead hand of bureaucracy crushing innovation. And some of my post was in response to the other replies in the thread, not the OP.

 

[function]

Where's all the fear mongering coming from? War against modernity? Feels like I've accidentally skipped into another thread.

Innovation tends to find a way (to be innovative). I've heard discussion about distributed computing being a potentially excellent way of making the most of computing resources. Thinking about it, this could be true for both computer hardware and power consumption (not that power consumption was the subject of the article).

Computers take a lot of resources to make and contain some potentially harmful substances that can make their disposal problematic. I think Europe has had rules on recycling computer components for a few years now, but I can't be bothered to check (sorry, in a hurry). I fail to see the existence of this report as a cause for concern.

 

[Natoma]

There are quite a few companies such as Dell that offer recycling programs, even for computers that they didn't sell. Personally I store all my old computer parts, give them to my company for use in building servers, or hand them down to someone like my mom.

However, the first option is the one that's going to solve this problem long term. AFAIK, it adds $15-$20 to the overall price of the computer. It's just a matter of educating people on what to do once they want to upgrade their machines down the line.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the fact that american companies have the technology to raise the mpg of their SUVs into the 30s and 40s (Honda is debuting a 50+mpg SUV in 2005 IIRC), but act as if it'll be the death of them to do so. Honda and Toyota, here I come.. At least, when I actually decide to buy a car.

 

[DemoCoder]

This information is rather suspect. The report says that manufacturing a PC takes 1.7 tons of material, but 1.5 tons of that is water. What's the marginal additional water consumption per PC? I don't care if 15 tons of water are used, if that water is filtered and reused. It also doesn't matter if the rate of consumption is less than the rate of production, especially if the consumption is but a fraction of what people waste on their pools and lawns. For example, *vast volumes* of water are used in steel production. But the steel industry recycles 95% of their water now. You will also find that wafer fabs that produce chips have much higher recycling rates than non-electronics industry.

Total consumption of fresh water by industry in US is 15%. Consider your PC made with 1.5 tons of water. By contrast, a low-flo 2.5gpm shower, if you take, for instance 10 minute showers, will use up 1.5 tons of water in 15 showers. If you take 5 minute showers, it uses an equivalent amount in 30 days. Unless you're buying a new PC every month, the resources used to produce a new PC for you are dwarfed by your showers, your pooping, and your lawn sprinklers.


As for PC's power supply units. Blame Tesla and Westinghouse. Roughly 50% of a typical PC's power is WASTED by the AC/DC conversion. A superior design would place an AC/DC converter on the outside of your house, and have electrical outlets in your house deliver DC to all your DC-oriented devices, instead of having each device do the conversion.

If you co-locate some machines at a ISP or co-lo provider, they often will give you the option of taking pure DC on your rack and they'll give you a lower monthly cost, since the biggest problem for rackspace providers is power density.


This report is just more scaremongering. If you added up *ALL* the resources used to deliver your PC to you, not just manufacturing, but transportation, food to pay workers, construction of warehouse to store it, energy to drive and construct boats, planes, and ships to ship it, then it would look even more unbalanced. A huge amount of infrastructure had to be "brought online" during the 90s to deal with this, including way more trucks on our nations highways. Ooh, scary. I hope Hellboy ends the world first, so we don't die of starvation and pollution right?

 

[Willmeister]

There is also another serious drawback to electronics. And that's the power grid. Having many connected as a load to the grid is nearly impossible to balance. What makes it even worse is that a lot of smaller firms are plugging in huge networks without using another reactive power device. Compare that to other larger industries that will use synchronous motor(s) or capacitor bank to balance their load state so as to avoid power factor surcharges by the utility. Without these, the power consumption in the grid goes up up up. Losses go up up up and that requires more energy generate to cover the losses. And that's increasingly more and more fossil fuel. I'm not in electrical engineering (mechanical) but this is discussed constantly in the Electric Motors course. This is why a local dorm kept having breakers tripping out a couple years back. Too many pieces of electronics...

(Totally unrrelated but when did Korean cars suddenly become more reliable? I always thought Hyundais are one step above Skoda and Lada. )

 

[Willmeister]

As for PC's power supply units. Blame Tesla and Westinghouse. Roughly 50% of a typical PC's power is WASTED by the AC/DC conversion. A superior design would place an AC/DC converter on the outside of your house, and have electrical outlets in your house deliver DC to all your DC-oriented devices, instead of having each device do the conversion.

Edit: sorry misread. Thought you said convert ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD to DC.

VERY BAD IDEA. DC motors which is probably where all the power is going anyway (fans, etc) are more mechanically unreliable and the only advantage they have over AC induction motors has largely evaporated given the state of power electronics today.

Having something like a synchronous motor for each home to automatically balance the load is a good idea but not really feasable. But it SHOULD be required for many places that use a lot computers and/or buildings with really crappy power factors. Utilities could drop the power factor where the surcharge kicks in from 0.85? to something like 0.70. Make people realize the true costs of their businesses. People would become more aware and more responsible.