Retro thread of sub 100 Watt nostalgia

[function]

I thought it might be fun to have a thread in which people bring up cool or fondly remembered bits about old systems, such as the NES, Megadrive, 3DO, whatever hardware Nintendo use in the NX, etc.

I've enjoyed the PS2 and Saturn discussion in the tech forum, and would enjoy hearing about random highs, lows, wows, trivia and demos for old systems.

I'll start by posting a video of a homebrew port of Wolfenstein for the Megadrive:

I'm seriously impressed by this. And while we're on the subject of Megadrive, hold onto your Weeaboo hats folks, it a cart based multimedia extravaganza!:

Bonus 2600 (I'll take it for granted it's real):

And bonus Vectrex, supposedly on a custom 16 MByte cart:

Please post anything you find interesting, or that impressed you then or now.

 

[Rangers]

One of my first experiences with 16 bit was Dungeon Explorer...some guys from school showed me Ultima VI? I think...The Black Gate...on PC at that time it was just like my dream to own a lowly NES...they scoffed at the NES and it's puny gfx. Ultima Vi was like some unimaginably cool thing to me, I remember the depth of it was just beyond anything I'd seen.

Anyways Dungeon Explorer was not really like Ultima, little depth, but I felt the graphics held up to that game at least

If we wanna go even further back...Final Fantasy 1...got this game on Christmes and didn't stop playing for ten days till it was beat...

One thing I still remember thats funny is there was a party member who was kind of a karate guy...and I'd equip weapons on him, and if all my guys hit for like 1k, he might hit for like 100, nonetheless I beat the whole game this way. I was deep into the game or had beaten it when I realized, he is meant to fight with his bare fist! He would hit for huge damage if you left no weapon equipped, but I never knew that. So, 1/4 of my party was deeply handicapped and I still beat it.

It probably was a similar deepness to Ultima, it was exactly what I wanted. Free travel once you got the airship, etc.

Another huge early game for me was Revege of Shinobi Genesis...so much graphics for the time. It had bosses like the Hulk, Terminator etc, even if they weren't called that it was obvious. As a kid of course this was great.

 

[Grall]

And while we're on the subject of Megadrive, hold onto your Weeaboo hats folks, it a cart based multimedia extravaganza!:

That's just amazingly good animation and direction, is it an original work, or did the guy merely digitize a music video and compress it into a Megadrive cart format? Technically pretty awesome too; while the lo-fi audio rather hurts my ears, the smooth animation is really good for a piece of hardware which was originally designed for sprites and character display... SNES had terrible performance when writing into its video memory, so I wonder if it could copy that without using something like a SuperFX auxiliary processor.

Then again, Jurassic Park did have textured "3D" graphics on a bog standard SNES without any additional chips, so maybe a sufficiently skilled coding magician could have hacked something together! *shrug*

 

[Exophase]

That's just amazingly good animation and direction, is it an original work, or did the guy merely digitize a music video and compress it into a Megadrive cart format? Technically pretty awesome too; while the lo-fi audio rather hurts my ears, the smooth animation is really good for a piece of hardware which was originally designed for sprites and character display... SNES had terrible performance when writing into its video memory, so I wonder if it could copy that without using something like a SuperFX auxiliary processor.

That's the "Bad Apple" animation from Touhou which has had homebrew renditions for all sorts of old consoles. Probably because it's mostly done in silhouettes, so it can be represented without a lot of storage or need for high color density. Look at function's post again, two others were posted.

To answer your question, this SNES version is pretty similar (with a better recording, mind you):

They could probably do a much better job with the audio if they properly sequenced the non-vocal parts instead of streaming it all at a low bitrate.

I actually find these kind of passe, since the real limiter for FMV in old games was storage space and these demos tend to burn out entire large cart spaces on the video. See PC-Engine, the CD-ROM add-on enabled passable quality FMV despite adding no CPU or graphical capabilities to the original system, which has a 6502-derived 8-bit CPU. For example, see Gulliver Boy:

The Vectrex one is really neat though. Good application of the console.

 

[function]

To answer your question, this SNES version is pretty similar (with a better recording, mind you):

They could probably do a much better job with the audio if they properly sequenced the non-vocal parts instead of streaming it all at a low bitrate.

Do you think that's a better recording? They seem to be doing things a bit differently. Vocals on the MD version are a lot cleaner, while SNES recording is louder with blown out bass and some reverb.

Some of it could be down to sample frequency vs sample depth. I actually think MD recording sounds better (clearer) despite definitely being mono, but then again it seems to be using a bigger cart. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Interestingly the MD version is 320 x 224 vs the SNES 256 x 224, but that could just be because the SNES tops out at 256 unless you go into that funny impractical high res mode. MCD FMV games used 256 x 224 mode iirc. Speaking of which, colour palette was never in video playback's favour on the MCD, where some early games where limited to a single layer's 16 colours.

I actually find these kind of passe, since the real limiter for FMV in old games was storage space and these demos tend to burn out entire large cart spaces on the video. See PC-Engine, the CD-ROM add-on enabled passable quality FMV despite adding no CPU or graphical capabilities to the original system, which has a 6502-derived 8-bit CPU. For example, see Gulliver Boy:

Makes me sad that the PCE never got a UK release. I only ever saw it in my favourite dark little import gaming shop some way out of the town centre, and it was almost always locked away in a glass cabinet.

 

[function]

If we wanna go even further back...Final Fantasy 1...got this game on Christmes and didn't stop playing for ten days till it was beat...

One thing I still remember thats funny is there was a party member who was kind of a karate guy...and I'd equip weapons on him, and if all my guys hit for like 1k, he might hit for like 100, nonetheless I beat the whole game this way. I was deep into the game or had beaten it when I realized, he is meant to fight with his bare fist! He would hit for huge damage if you left no weapon equipped, but I never knew that. So, 1/4 of my party was deeply handicapped and I still beat it.

It probably was a similar deepness to Ultima, it was exactly what I wanted. Free travel once you got the airship, etc.

FFVII was my first FF! Considering the truly awful nature of the NES sound chip, some of the those FF tracks work really well, especially the FF theme. I wonder if that helped it become so iconic?

Another huge early game for me was Revege of Shinobi Genesis...so much graphics for the time. It had bosses like the Hulk, Terminator etc, even if they weren't called that it was obvious. As a kid of course this was great.

Ah yes! Fighting Spiderman on the train. Played the game so much I could finish it on top difficultly with starting set to zero shurikens. And a Yuzo Koshiro soundtrack. I built my first stereo gaming setup around this time - the MD's headphone socket meant I could cut up some headphones and solder the output directly to some old stereo speakers.

Early MD's, taking sound direct from the headphone socket which was powered by the audio chip (before it got mono'd and mangled by the output setup at the back), sounded great. Later MDs produced worse sound, sometimes drastically. There are some direct wav comparisons floating around on the web, I'll try and find them.

 

[Exophase]

Do you think that's a better recording? They seem to be doing things a bit differently. Vocals on the MD version are a lot cleaner, while SNES recording is louder with blown out bass and some reverb.

Better video recording. The description in the Genesis version says they couldn't capture the full framerate, so the SNES one looks smoother. But both are 30Hz on the console.

I don't know why the audio sounds so different when they're supposed to be using similar bit-depths. Maybe on SNES it uses the native hardware ADPCM format and on Genesis they use something else that has more flexibility. It's possible to get uncompressed streaming audio on SNES but it's more tricky. I think as far as actual DAC quality goes SNES is superior.

Interestingly the MD version is 320 x 224 vs the SNES 256 x 224, but that could just be because the SNES tops out at 256 unless you go into that funny impractical high res mode. MCD FMV games used 256 x 224 mode iirc. Speaking of which, colour palette was never in video playback's favour on the MCD, where some early games where limited to a single layer's 16 colours.

Yes, the Genesis has a resolution advantage.

The SNES version looks like it has better anti-aliasing on the edges and less overall noise. But it's hard to tell for sure without looking at the originals in an emulator or something, Youtube videos can add their own interference because of video encoding. It can actually act as a sort of filter making things look better instead of worse.

 

[Grall]

I think as far as actual DAC quality goes SNES is superior.

The SNES audio hardware is actually very good, its ADPCM sample rate can go up to close to CD quality level. Of course, you're not going to use any lengthy samples for that kind of rate because you only have 64k total for audio and some of that is eaten by the audio player software (and reverb buffer, if used), but it's useful for short looping instrument/SFX snippets and whatnot.

SNES has very good, high treble sound. It was awesome back in the day, many games had fantastic music, like Actraiser and Soulblazer for example... *sigh* I really should have saved my console and games collection!

 

[Reznor007]

The SNES audio hardware is actually very good, its ADPCM sample rate can go up to close to CD quality level. Of course, you're not going to use any lengthy samples for that kind of rate because you only have 64k total for audio and some of that is eaten by the audio player software (and reverb buffer, if used), but it's useful for short looping instrument/SFX snippets and whatnot.

SNES has very good, high treble sound. It was awesome back in the day, many games had fantastic music, like Actraiser and Soulblazer for example... *sigh* I really should have saved my console and games collection!

I actually modified my real SNES for digital audio output using an SPDIF transmitter IC connected to the DSP's digital output pins that go to the DAC in the SNES. It outputs 32KHz 16bit stereo, and the games sound fantastic on a nice system.

 

[dogen]

Considering the truly awful nature of the NES sound chip

Who cares how advanced it is..
The nes sound chip is great.

 

[Grall]

I actually modified my real SNES for digital audio output

That's friggen awesome! Next, maybe you can mod it so you get a HDMI video out too! (Dunno if SNES uses an external ramdac/video encoder - if it's like the NES where it's integrated onto the graphics chip IIRC it would be unpossible...)

 

[Reznor007]

That's friggen awesome! Next, maybe you can mod it so you get a HDMI video out too! (Dunno if SNES uses an external ramdac/video encoder - if it's like the NES where it's integrated onto the graphics chip IIRC it would be unpossible...)

Sadly the dac is integrated into the ppu. However the n64 does use an external audio and video dac, and someone has made an Hdmi board that taps the digital outputs. Gamecube has received an Hdmi mod also.

Edit - the snes spdif mod is actually pretty easy if you are OK soldering wires to a qfp chip. Only costs a few dollars in parts too. I'd recommend it for anyone capable of doing it. The only downside is that the super Gameboy adapter won't make sounds because it routes the Gameboy sounds through the external analog audio pins on the cartridge slot, and gets mixed in after the dac in the snes.

 

[function]

I actually modified my real SNES for digital audio output using an SPDIF transmitter IC connected to the DSP's digital output pins that go to the DAC in the SNES. It outputs 32KHz 16bit stereo, and the games sound fantastic on a nice system.

That's very cool.

Who cares how advanced it is..
The nes sound chip is great.

Can't agree I'm afraid. Very, very little flexibility. Perhaps not awful for 1983 (though I can't bring myself to call it great ), but when Nintendo were still selling it as their flagship console in 1990? Incredibad. I think the SNES's quality and flexibility might have been in part a reaction to how bad the NES sounded compared to its contemporaries.

Interesting yootoob for anyone wondering about NES (or C64) music:

 

[Grall]

NES's sound wasn't terrible compared to its early '80s contemporaries. Only compared to the SID of C64 fame and later 80s designs did it start to lose out. Having fixed channels for different waveforms was the standard in early sound synths; C64 was unique for its time in having selectable waveforms for all its channels.

Also, NES did have hardware PCM sample support... While SID could also output samples, it was done very hackishly using CPU PIO and didn't work properly on certain hardware revisions of the chip.

Even if you think NES sound is terrible you have to admit it is very distinct and easily recognized. Just like the muddy colors and wavy artefacting of NES graphics makes it immediately recognizable...

 

[bunge]

Sorry if this was already posted:

The Analogue Nt is the best NES that (a lot of) money can buy

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/07/analogue-nt-a-museum-grade-nes-for-a-museum-grade-price/

 

[Globalisateur]

I actually modified my real SNES for digital audio output using an SPDIF transmitter IC connected to the DSP's digital output pins that go to the DAC in the SNES. It outputs 32KHz 16bit stereo, and the games sound fantastic on a nice system.

That's cool! That reminds me when I tried to mod my Pal SNES with a 50/60 hz toggle. Unfortunately I failed and damaged it. Was much easier to buy an already modded SNES on ebay...

 

[dogen]

Can't agree I'm afraid. Very, very little flexibility. Perhaps not awful for 1983 (though I can't bring myself to call it great ), but when Nintendo were still selling it as their flagship console in 1990? Incredibad. I think the SNES's quality and flexibility might have been in part a reaction to how bad the NES sounded compared to its contemporaries.

Interesting yootoob for anyone wondering about NES (or C64) music:

Yeah, I'm just a huge fan of that old school console sound. Actually I tried to edit my post to say the NES is great with the vrc6, and just good by itself.

If you're not aware of Konami's vrc6 sound chip, it added 2 additional pulse/square wave channels(with better duty cycle control), and a sawtooth channel. The low channel count was really the main weakness of these early systems, so it was exactly what the system needed for more complex compositions.

The best music on the system was arguably VRC6 stuff.

NES's sound wasn't terrible compared to its early '80s contemporaries. Only compared to the SID of C64 fame and later 80s designs did it start to lose out.

Even that is debatable. SID only having 3 channels is a huge limitation. Because of that I tend to prefer the NES sound, over the C64. To many arps.

 

[AzBat]

Would the IBM PCjr be included here? It was 33-watts & had cartridges(CrossFire, Demon Attack, Micro Surgeon, Mine Shaft, Mouser, PitFall II, River Raid & ScubaVenture). It was my first PC, but really used it as my premier gaming system. Got the Atari 2600 before & NES after(didn't play it too much since I rather play my PCjr). After I got rid of my PCjr & NES it was all PCs until the original Xbox came out.

Tommy McClain

 

[Grall]

Even that is debatable. SID only having 3 channels is a huge limitation.

3 flexible SID channels could be seen as more useful than the 5 fixed channels of the NES sound chip...

Fast-forward to the mid-80s and onwards, and you have various Yamaha FM-synth chips with sometimes quite a few (simple) channels that could gang up for more complex sounds. ...Although I never found the tonality and melody of these chips to be nearly as interesting as the raw pulsing of a NES.

 

[dogen]

3 flexible SID channels could be seen as more useful than the 5 fixed channels of the NES sound chip...

Depends on who you ask I guess. Both are pretty limited. That's what those expansion chips are for.

Fast-forward to the mid-80s and onwards, and you have various Yamaha FM-synth chips ... ...Although I never found the tonality and melody of these chips to be nearly as interesting as the raw pulsing of a NES.

I think the yamaha chips are a pretty clear improvement over the vanilla nes. But that's probably because I don't mind the slight harshness of fm sound. The much wider array of sounds is worth it imo.

with sometimes quite a few (simple) channels that could gang up for more complex sounds

Yeah, you could even sometimes split the channels up into multiple ones too. So you could get 4 notes out of 2 channels with a certain algorithm. And then there's channel 3 on the ym2612 which can be split up into 4 individual sine waves. Thunderforce IV used this trick to make more complex chords.