R300 the fastest for DoomIII, John Carmack Speaks Again

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multigl2

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http://www.msnbc.com/news/758337.asp?0dm=B15LT&cp1=1

“NVidia has been stellar in terms of driver quality and support and doing all of the things right,â€￾ says Carmack, who has been an outspoken evangelist for NVidia’s GeForce technology. “For the past few years, they have been able to consistently outplay ATI on every front. The problem is that they are about one-half step out of synch with the hardware generation because they did Xbox instead of focusing everything on their next board. So they are a little bit behind ATI.â€￾
“I told everyone that I was going to demonstrate Doom III on the best hardware, and there has been no collusion or kickbacks or anything like that going on. Our objective is the technical merit.â€￾
“The new ATI card was clearly superior. I don’t want to ding NVidia for anything because NVidia has done everything they possibly could; but in every test we ran, ATI was faster.â€￾
 
Hehe, its so nice to have at least 1 guy in the industry who can afford to say things like they are (if he could not afford it I doubt he would, its not a character issue ... just being in a position of strength).
 
DaveBaumann said:
What's he talking about though? NV25 or NV30? Its easy to construe it both ways...
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you make an excellent point. It is nearly impossible to tell... but if you figure he is on the subject of "next gen" chips he would make reference ATi's next gen being faster than Nvidia's current... at least you would think so.
 
I have to agree with Wavey... What was he exactly comparing to what ? Did ATI put all its effort into making this one app run (full of driver hacks/whatever) to grab full PR for a product they have not even announced ? And what was it compared to ? The already released GF4 4600 Ti ?

Its IMHO really hard to say what has really happened here. Possibly he is saying : ATI had early silicon that they managed to tweak so it runs my DoomIII quite fast, NVIDIA did not yet have silicon or did not get the tweak hacks running in time. Could even mean that NVIDIA is aiming for .13 and AT for .15 hence ATI was able to get silicon quicker... Who knows ;)

K~
 
Kristof said:
I have to agree with Wavey... What was he exactly comparing to what ? Did ATI put all its effort into making this one app run (full of driver hacks/whatever) to grab full PR for a product they have not even announced ? And what was it compared to ? The already released GF4 4600 Ti ?

Its IMHO really hard to say what has really happened here. Possibly he is saying : ATI had early silicon that they managed to tweak so it runs my DoomIII quite fast, NVIDIA did not yet have silicon or did not get the tweak hacks running in time. Could even mean that NVIDIA is aiming for .13 and AT for .15 hence ATI was able to get silicon quicker... Who knows ;)
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Who said anything was "tweaked"? You think that ATI must be using "driver hacks" because John Carmack says we are faster?

Instead of being negative, maybe you should think about the good things to come.
 
Yep - it kinda all hinges on this one sentence:

The problem is that they are about one-half step out of synch with the hardware generation because they did Xbox instead of focusing everything on their next board.
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Having said that, if he were talking about .15um parts then you would think that he wouldn't say NVIDIA were behing sync as they've already had two .15um parts to ATi's one - if we were talking about an .15um R300 then ATi would be behing sync in terms of product cycle, but ahead in term of performance. So, this make me sway towards him talking about NV30.

(See how easy it is to construe both ways!)
 
It would be cool is someone at B3D (Wavey or Rev) could e-mail JC/someone at ID and clarify things a little.
 
“The problem is that they are about one-half step out of synch with the hardware generation [...]â€￾
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Sounds to me like nVidia is 3 months or so behind. If that's the case, NV30 most likely wasn't ready yet.

(edit)
Whoa, my response was a little late. Guess you could interpret it either way.
 
“For the past few years, they have been able to consistently outplay ATI on every front. The problem is that they are about one-half step out of synch with the hardware generation because they did Xbox instead of focusing everything on their next board. So they are a little bit behind ATI.â€￾
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This might indicate that he's isn't comparing the R300 against the NV30.
Next gen board after X-Box (in time that is) is the GF 4 afaik.
 
I think it is pretty clear, given JC's past clarity of mind, that he is giving as much indication as possible given NDAs that it is NV30 versus R300. It would be pointless to make that comment about R300 versus NV25, and I can't picture him making that string of comments with such a comparison in mind.

He is clearly talking about big picture, and has clearly stated his analysis of all currently released cards by name previously.

I can't accept that he would blithely compare an R300 to the NV25 while talking about nVidia being out of sync by a half step, since the NV30 is scheduled to be released at the same time as R300.

I also can't accept, in light of this text, that there remains any doubt that it isn't the RV250 that was used, but the R300, since the RV250 was described as an incremental upgrade from the R200, and I can't comprehend the RV250 being such a clear winner. I could be wrong...it could have changed greatly from "leaked" specs, especially given the delay in release from when it was expected, but my theory on that delay is for being more attractive to those turned off by nVidia's rapid chip obsolesence.

It is possible that MSNBC completely distorted his words when quoting him, but I don't view that as likely at all.
 
AFAICS the best hardware == the best hardware available right now. The comment on NVidia being a half step behind could refer to either the tech or the schedule.

So basically the whole question is, do developers have NV30 [alpha/beta/whatever] boards right now (if anyone has any I figure id software does)?

Regards,
Serge
 
Geeforcer said:
It would be cool is someone at B3D (Wavey or Rev) could e-mail JC/someone at ID and clarify things a little.
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I'll second that. Errr, third that (or whatever).

Just ask the man. Or ask ATI and nVidia. Don't be so bloody shy guys - you know how to type an e-mail, don't you?!
 
I think Rev has tried on numerous occasions, but to no avail. I would like his opinions on more than just this though - we've not heard what he thinks about Parhelia or P10 (which I would assume would be the closest thing to what he has been calling for for a lonf time).

I'm sure he's had it from about 100 sites already but I might give it another go.
 
OMG I thought he made it very clear why he chose the R300 as the nV30 is not ready yet. Also dont forget this is JohnC. He is not afriad to tell you striaght up the fact. We knew that the 8500 had more features than the GF3/4 so is it no suprise.
 
For JC to talk about next-gen hardware is in violation of NDA's.

It is obvious that nVidia's technology has been about half a step behind ATI's after each new hardware release by ATI. Therefore, JC is definitely referring to this.

Since the NV30 is to be released at about the same time as the R300, they should be on similar footing. We'll see how it pans out.

The only thing that we can conclude for certain is that the R300 is better for DOOM3 than the GeForce4 Ti 4600. But we already knew this, didn't we? This is almost like comparing a GeForce2 to a Radeon 8500, or a Radeon to a TNT2 Ultra. There really is no comparison, and there shouldn't be.

What is unknown is why the NV30 was not used in the presentation. I would like to think it's simply because nVidia's hardware wasn't yet ready. Whether this means that ATI will be first to market or not, we cannot yet tell, though they do have a chance of being first.

Therefore, here are the possibilities:
1. R300 is better in DOOM3.
2. NV30 is not yet ready, and therefore may not be available as soon as the R300.

Given the past, the second is almost certainly the case.
 
The only thing that we can conclude for certain is that the R300 is better for DOOM3 than the GeForce4 Ti 4600.
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I don't think thats a certainty from whats being talked about here.

And talk of violating NDA's goes both ways (albeit one for the better and one for the worse).
 
Except he quite plainly already talked about the next generation and his NDAs. It's a funny circle that can be argued both ways. Personally, it doesn't matter to me which card NV30 or R300 comes out ahead, by the time Doom3 ships to stores, there's likely to be another card from all the manufacturers (ATI, Matrox, Nvidia, 3DLabs) out if not 2 past NV30/R300
 
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