Q&A: GM crops decision - UK to introduce GM maize

Druga Runda

Sleepy Substitute
Regular
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3546147.stm

and the development leading to this:

GM tests show wildlife dangers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3196768.stm

GM experts cautious on maize crop
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3391431.stm

and
UK doctors alter tack to back GMs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3545717.stm
this is all what was left from the healt risk worries

In its submission then, the BMA said: "There has not yet been a robust and thorough search into the potentially harmful effects of GM foodstuffs on human health."

It said the most worrying issue was the potential danger posed by GM crops in creating antibiotic resistance in humans leading to new diseases.

The submission said: "Although the risk is not yet known, any increase in the number of resistant micro-organisms through the transfer of markers from GM foods would potentially have very serious adverse effects on human health."

The Scottish Executive rejected the BMA's concern over the trials, saying it would not have supported them if there had been any question about their safety.

The UK government is today announcing its agreement in principle to allow the commercial planting of one variety of GM maize.


ummm

what can I say, this one looks like it is a well timed and carefull introduction. By the looks of it most likely no harm from this one, interesting part is what comes next...
 
hysteria no doubt followed by eco extremists such as though mentioned within your links (most noticably those supporting the Swiss "baby" protest)

The British Medical Association says it thinks there is "very little potential" for GM food to produce harmful effects.

It calls for an end to "the hysteria" it says often surrounds the GM debate.

The BMA's Dr Vivienne Nathanson said GM food had "enormous potential to benefit both the developed and developing world in the long term", but care was needed.

I definately agree. I think the more educated the populace becomes wrt to GMOs the less likely they will be susceptible to agencies such as Green Peace.
 
so I will transfer here

putting off, or banning the development of GMOs (Genetically Modified Organisms) limits our own progress and understanding within the field. The more corporations invest in Biotech facilities (who will develop more GMOs in response) the more likely we are to be prepared to develop a GMO resistant to a particular upcoming disease.

while this is true the development would still be under way, albeit slower, still a proper intervention would IMHO be certainly possible. and that pretty much targets you last opinion on my "flawed logic" - having research commercially sponsored is not the only way of having research - it has its benefits (amount of $$$ ) and drawbacks ( $$$ return bias resulting in short-term profits over safety problems;) as the "slimming drug" for example http://www.primary-pulmonary-hypertension-pph.com/fen_phen_pph.html
*in that case the company was aware of harmful side effects but still sold the drug as usual...
Fen Phen is in the middle of a nationwide class action for the failure of the drug company to disclose information that could have prevented the health risks and complications of hundreds and possibly thousands of patients. Fen Phen patients involved in the class action lawsuit have found further health deterioration over time, which the class action will not cover. The ability to opt-out of the class action and individually pursue a lawsuit with our team of legal experts can ensure you receive the proper compensation that you are entitled to.

http://www.fenphenattorney.com/html/faq.html

btw... this drug was widely available and went trough all usual governmental checks...

the whole point is just to prove the "fallability of the system" point - this drug affected the users only and that is1/3 of the users presumably, the potential with GMO is that the problem will affect everyone. I am pretty certain it will happen sooner or later


Come now, these products are tested long before they are ever released. They do not simply alter certain proteins within a plant turn to you and say "here are the seeds"

Nonsense.

Take for example Bt 176 corn. The problems related to it were avoided before they became terribly problematic.

I see no reason for your phobia other than what the media may have suggested to you. I am tempted to tell you to consider their source.

you react as if science is infallible, which of course I hope you will agree it is not.

Evolution has caused the very same thing within natural species.

I am sorry, but i can not find any valid reason to take such allegations seriously. Especially considering the R&D that goes into developing GMOs. The USDA/EPA in particular have convinced me they have many safe guards in place to test GMOs for any potential threat.

Quote:
That's why I'd leave bioengineered stuff for the times we will really need it as opposed introduciing it now for financial gain.


But there is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Will we be prepared when we need it if we prevent development?

evolution did it's thing over a much larger time span and as well ir produced devastating effects for some species as the whole thing moved "forward" ... but it took time, we are now taking time out, and still keeping the risks involved... the risks will be mitigated by testing to most extent but no risk can be 100% removed. R&D might be great but my 1/100 or 1/1000 will still happen. And that is the risk not worth taking as long term the shortfalls will outweight the gains.

One more problem the gains are >>only<< commercial, - is it gonna resolve the economic problems of food supply world wide? no - and the shortfalls might well be "global socio economic disaster" of some level sooner or later.

Of course in the name of some "it might happen, but it hasn't yet" the research should not be stopping, but a commercialization of the whole process is certainly not warrented in my not so professional opinion of course. ;)
 
This is nothing like the slimming drug. The drug was a complex mix of chemicals. GM crops are the same thing modified to need less bugspray etc. All the reaction you see is that "we haven't done enough testing" by people who wear white coats. What they mean to say is, we didn't get paid a shed load of cash to do testing so we're gonna moan.

Lets face it, they're essentially the same thing as non GM crops at the scientific level. The only reason people are getting scared is the same reason people panickied at pastruised milk. Scaremoungering.

For every technological development, there is a hippie.
 
while this is true the development would still be under way, albeit slower, still a proper intervention would IMHO be certainly possible.

As you mentioned it would undoubtedly be slower possibly costing lives in terms of famine. I'd rather not risk this and continue to develop these GMOs which could stand to aid third world nations to develop their own food in conditions they couldn't before do.

and that pretty much targets you last opinion on my "flawed logic" - having research commercially sponsored is not the only way of having research - it has its benefits (amount of $$$ ) and drawbacks ( $$$ return bias resulting in short-term profits over safety problems; as the "slimming drug" for example)

I would say commercially sponsered research would bring about the most flexibility wrt GMO diversity and development. Considering the matter is so damn politically contraversial i immediately question any governments' involvements in state controled funding of GMOs.

I find your analogy concerning the "slimming drugs" to be rather incorrect. There is no reason to assume a government wouldn't get involved in such a scheme itself. The more entities you have investing and being invested in the more chances you will see corruption, a pure statistical fact.

you react as if science is infallible, which of course I hope you will agree it is not.

No, i treat it based on the findings it presents. Even your links verify fear wrt to GMOs have been widely hysteria.

The fact of the matter is we have been genetically influencing various molds for generations to develop new antibacterial solutions. Though some have proved dangerous to portions of the population the overall success in terms of lives saved has more than covered for any negative factors. I'd hardly imagine some one attacking modern pharmacuetics based on some kind of potential danger.

evolution did it's thing over a much larger time span and as well ir produced devastating effects for some species as the whole thing moved "forward" ...

It is still "doing its thing" as we speak. Evolution has not stopped. I may now stop and ask you who has turned out more poisonous organism, man or nature?

but it took time, we are now taking time out, and still keeping the risks involved... the risks will be mitigated by testing to most extent but no risk can be 100% removed. R&D might be great but my 1/100 or 1/1000 will still happen. And that is the risk not worth taking as long term the shortfalls will outweight the gains.

Which do you trust more? Evolutionary random mutations or controlled intelligent mutations? Which have turned out more poisonous and potentially harmful organism?

The fact of the matter is evolution and human mutation only have on inherent difference: the factor of intelligence and the time frame in which events took place.

Do you hear scientists bemoan nature's allowance for mammals to dominate the Earth or for certain plant and animal species to drive others into extinction?

One more problem the gains are >>only<< commercial, - is it gonna resolve the economic problems of food supply world wide? no - and the shortfalls might well be "global socio economic disaster" of some level sooner or later.

Thats not even true. In terms of end product the gains could be fair waited in the public sector. Think of the all the starving people around the world who could benefit tremedously from such research.

How can you say it won't resolve world food supply problems? How are you qualified to make such a statement?

Of course in the name of some "it might happen, but it hasn't yet" the research should not be stopping, but a commercialization of the whole process is certainly not warrented in my not so professional opinion of course. ;)

Well i'd rather keep funding public then in the hands of government facism and political partisanship.
 
sytaylor said:
This is nothing like the slimming drug. The drug was a complex mix of chemicals. GM crops are the same thing modified to need less bugspray etc. All the reaction you see is that "we haven't done enough testing" by people who wear white coats. What they mean to say is, we didn't get paid a shed load of cash to do testing so we're gonna moan.

Lets face it, they're essentially the same thing as non GM crops at the scientific level. The only reason people are getting scared is the same reason people panickied at pastruised milk. Scaremoungering.

For every technological development, there is a hippie.


OMG! What will we do if we develope corn with serrated teeth and breaths fire?!!


....eat more popcorn....
 
Legion said:
sytaylor said:
This is nothing like the slimming drug. The drug was a complex mix of chemicals. GM crops are the same thing modified to need less bugspray etc. All the reaction you see is that "we haven't done enough testing" by people who wear white coats. What they mean to say is, we didn't get paid a shed load of cash to do testing so we're gonna moan.

Lets face it, they're essentially the same thing as non GM crops at the scientific level. The only reason people are getting scared is the same reason people panickied at pastruised milk. Scaremoungering.

For every technological development, there is a hippie.


OMG! What will we do if we develope corn with serrated teeth and breaths fire?!!


....eat more popcorn....

while we agree that there will be failures we disagree on their impacts.

IMHO GMO has the potential tho have global consequences. Dragon corn would be cool, but wiping out maize with a failed introduction would not.

While you would say it is impossible to happen, I am not so convinced.

Life is full of possibilities ;)

check this liberal scaremongering out:


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/06/34558.html
WEST LAFAYETTE, Indiana, June 21, 2002 (ENS) - Genetically modified organisms introduced into wild populations could drive the natural species toward extinction, warn two Purdue University scientists.
William Muir, professor of animal sciences, and Richard Howard, professor of biology, used computer modeling and statistical analyses to examine the hypothetical risks of introducing genetically modified organisms into wild populations.
"We examined these hypothetical situations because the range of new transgenic organisms is almost unlimited," Muir said. "It is constructive for those developing such organisms to be able to anticipate how they could pose a hazard."
The new computer models have shown that the risk of extinction is greater than believed before, identifying three new scenarios in which genetically modified organisms (GMOs) could result in the extinction of a natural population.
"In the broadest sense, this research tells one how to do risk assessment and what GMOs need further containment," Muir said.
In 2000, Muir and Howard found that a release of fish that were larger - and therefore had higher mating success - but also had shorter life expectancy, could drive a wild population extinct in as few as 40 generations. Muir and Howard labeled this the "Trojan gene hypothesis."
Further investigation has found other scenarios that could also lead to extinction.
In one scenario, a genetic modification increases the size of the male, which results in the male finding more mates and also living longer. But if the modification also has a third effect of making the male less fertile, the predicted result is that the wild population will be extinct in just 20 generations.
"We consider this an extreme risk," Howard said. "That's the most severe time frame we've encountered so far."
Howard said this risk could arise if fertility was restricted in a genetically modified organism as a way to limit the spread of the gene in the natural population.
"This was the biggest surprise for me, that if you lowered fertility of genetically modified organism the time course to population extinction was faster rather than slower when the genetically modified young have better survival than wild type individuals," Howard said. "I still look at the graph of those data and find it amazing."
The researchers also found scenarios in which the introduced gene could spread through the population but not reduce the overall population size. The researchers termed this an invasion risk.
"The invasion risk is an unknown in assessing the overall risk," Howard said. "Given the biology, all we can say is that the gene would increase in the population. We don't know if that would cause a problem or not. In this case you wouldn't really know until you actually released the gene into the population."
The research appears in the current issue of the journal "Transgene Research."
 
right off the bat i will ask you to remove that indymedia link...

can you find same stated information at a reputable source?
 
well isn't that narrowmindedness :p I guess that the professors should have more insight into the matter than us here :hmmm: or do you think that indymedia posts lies only :?:

what about this


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-08/ns-dd082703.php

Designer diseases
EVERY few years, a plague of European house mice infests one of Australia's grain regions. Roads turn into fur carpets of squashed mice. Millions of dollars' worth of grain is eaten or spoiled. Homes and buildings are damaged. The only defence is poison, a slow painful death for the mice, and for any other animals that can get at the bait.

How much better it would be to have a kinder, gentler form of pest control, one that renders female mice infertile, preventing plagues before they start and leaving native wildlife untouched.

And that is just what the Pest Animal Control-Cooperative Research Centre (PAC-CRC) in Canberra hopes it has created. Its agent could be undergoing contained field trials in Australia within two years, and be commercially available within five.

But there's a catch. The agent in question is a genetically modified virus designed to replicate and spread. It is a new, man-made disease, one of several being developed (see "On the drawing board", opposite). Once released, they will be as hard to control as any other wildlife disease. Like natural diseases, they could be accidentally or deliberately taken to other countries. They could mutate or recombine with other viruses. They could jump species. The consequences could be disastrous.

The European house mouse may be an exotic pest in Australia, for instance, but in many countries it is a native animal and a key part of the food chain. Nor is the mouse virus the only "disseminating" or transmissible genetically modified organism with the potential to spark international conflict. A team in New Zealand is modifying a parasitic nematode to sterilise brushtail possums- a devastating pest in New Zealand but a protected species in Australia. "Once you've let it go, you can't get it back," admits Warwick Grant, head of the team at AgResearch in Upper Hutt. "Biological control has a chequered history. The stakes are pretty high and you don't want to get it wrong."

Meanwhile, on a small island in Spain, a transmissible GMO with quite a different purpose has already been tested. It is a living vaccine that protects rabbits from myxomatosis and calicivirus. These diseases have decimated Spanish rabbit populations, causing consternation among hunters as well as affecting predators such as the threatened Iberian lynx and the Spanish imperial eagle. Australian farmers, by contrast, were only too happy when calicivirus escaped from a research station on Wardang Island in 1995. For them, the arrival of the Spanish virus would be a disaster, allowing rabbit populations to boom.

If the potential for international conflict is obvious, the means of preventing it is not. None of the researchers contacted by New Scientist knew who to consult in countries that might be adversely affected by the transmissible GMOs they are developing, what they would do if a country objected to the GMO, and what international laws govern the release of such organisms.

The confusion is understandable. Within the European Union, the European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products must approve the commercial use of the Spanish GMO rabbit vaccine- and it is unlikely to do so given the current European distaste for GMOs, according to team member Juan B‡rcena of the Centre for Animal Health Research (CISA) in Madrid.

Around the world, various organisations have put out recommendations on the use of GMOs in general, but only one, the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE), is anywhere close to exerting control over transmissible GMOs. Earlier this year, a report from its Working Group on Wildlife Diseases again raised concerns about these organisms. The OIE has yet to establish an official position on the issue, but if it does, member countries would likely take notice. But for now, PAC-CRC teams in Australia only need permission from the Office of the Gene Technology Regulator to release a GMO. The OGTR considers a GMO's potential impact on the environment and can consult internationally. But it is not clear whether the OGTR has the power or the will to refuse to allow a transmissible GMO to be released in Australia because of its potential impact in another country. The head of the OGTR, Sue Meek, declined to be interviewed.

"The public is not even aware of these developments," says Robert Henzell of the Animal and Plant Control Commission in Adelaide, South Australia. He thinks that transmissible GMOs could be useful in places like Australia, with its vast tracts of sparsely populated land. But the job of pest control must be done safely, Henzell says. "We want to talk about these things before they are let go, rather than pick up the pieces later."

Tony Peacock, head of the PAC-CRC, argues that Australia's island status and its distance from other countries, allied with quarantine procedures, would be enough to stop a GMO from leaving its shores. But those barriers were not enough to stop people illegally taking calicivirus from Australia to New Zealand in 1997. Peacock also says that the consequences, should the mouse GMO escape, would not necessarily be disastrous, because the speed it spreads depends on the density of the mouse population. "The GMO is designed to avoid plaguing, not to wipe out a population," he says.

But that is not good enough for Henzell, who is organising a symposium on transmissible GMOs in New Zealand later this year. One topic up for discussion there is the development of safety measures that would help stop such organisms straying. One tactic would be to engineer a GMO to die out after few generations. But this runs counter to the whole idea of transmissible GMOs, which is that by being self-sustaining they avoid the huge expense of methods like laying bait.

Another option, says Henzell, would be to engineer an organism so that it is activated only in the presence of a specific chemical, such as something found only in the diet of animals in the country where it is intended to work.

Alternatively, a second transmissible GMO that protects animals from the first could be developed for use in non-target countries. "We ought to at least consider these things and ask whether they are possible," says Henzell. "But there's been nothing done so far."

And the potential for transmissible GMOs to spread to other countries is just one of the safety issues. What if the mouse virus- a modified mouse cytomegalovirus- jumps species and starts infecting one of Australia's own endangered rodents, or even people? "You can't assume that the modified virus will act like the parental strain," warns Adrian Gibbs, an expert on viral evolution formerly at the Australian National University in Canberra.

So far PAC-CRC has shown only that the mouse GMO does not infect rats, and that three species of native rodents are immune to the unmodified virus. It is gearing up to conduct safety experiments that will test the virus's ability to infect a wide range of species, including some rare mouse species in the US. The ultimate experiment will be releasing the virus. If it turns out that PAC-CRC has got it wrong, there may be little anyone can do about it.

###

New Scientist issue: 30 AUGUST 2003

PLEASE MENTION NEW SCIENTIST AS THE SOURCE OF THIS STORY AND, IF PUBLISHING ONLINE, PLEASE CARRY A HYPERLINK TO: http://www.newscientist.com.

just one more cool way how to develop GMO products 8)
 
well isn't that narrowmindedness :p I guess that the professors should have more insight into the matter than us here :hmmm: or do you think that indymedia posts lies only

what about this

I have had issues concerning indymedia's posts in the past.
 
k, i read one sentance and i find a flaw

Genetically modified organisms introduced into wild populations could drive the natural species toward extinction

We're talking about maize, maize that is exactly the same as all the other maize in the world, except it varies genetically. Just like humans do from person to person. How the blue chuff does being slightly more resistant to bugs and growing taller equate species being killed off? If had a modified kid to be 7 feet tall he wouldnt kill all the antilope in the world. Thats the absuridty of the scaremoungering.
 
your article, if presented dramatically, is comparable to the villagers with their torches running off to persue wicked old Frankenstein...
 
Legion said:
your article, if presented dramatically, is comparable to the villagers with their torches running off to persue wicked old Frankenstein...

Indeed, most of the objection to GM crops is due to mis-information and not having the facts. If you look to what has been found and not the besquillionth of a tenth of a millimeter of a percentage that is not known then the conclusion is obvious and overwhelming imo. If there is an eco warrior cause the media give it publicity because it sells, but the argument is held together by a shoe string.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Yeah...but what if he also had serrated teeth and breathed fire!

You've comically stumbled on the crux of the argument. The "What if'ers" as I call them. What if you didn't have the technology the know-how or even the slightest possibility of that happening?
 
Joe DeFuria said:
sytaylor said:
If had a modified kid to be 7 feet tall he wouldnt kill all the antilope in the world.

Yeah...but what if he also had serrated teeth and breathed fire!

Well if it were a plant i'd throw sticks at it and laugh. Then taunt it wrt to its fundamental design flaw: its rooted in the ground and i am not.
 
sytaylor said:
k, i read one sentance and i find a flaw

Genetically modified organisms introduced into wild populations could drive the natural species toward extinction

We're talking about maize, maize that is exactly the same as all the other maize in the world, except it varies genetically. Just like humans do from person to person. How the blue chuff does being slightly more resistant to bugs and growing taller equate species being killed off? If had a modified kid to be 7 feet tall he wouldnt kill all the antilope in the world. Thats the absuridty of the scaremoungering.


sys - to be honest I assume that this is from BBC - and I actually do not think this maize will be dangerous any more than you do... I am arguing the principle "comercially developed GMO" vs normal stuff; benefits vs risks.

And IMHO it is too risky, as the uintentionally introduced changes can have widespread effect, especially when commercialization goes into the full swing and the checking will be no better than it was for the "slimming drug" and commercially motivated companies will "cut the expenses" to maximize profits and cut on the testing, or even worse consiouslly introduce harmfull organisms for short-term benefit to the company and to the deteriment of the society.

Just that time it won't be a slimming drug ruining lives of thousands of people but a GMO altering lives of millions.


your article, if presented dramatically, is comparable to the villagers with their torches running off to persue wicked old Frankenstein...

OK I have answers on the "overly dramatic presentation" of the data, not on the content
 
Druga Runda said:
sys - to be honest I assume that this is from BBC - and I actually do not think this maize will be dangerous any more than you do... I am arguing the principle "comercially developed GMO" vs normal stuff; benefits vs risks.

And IMHO it is too risky, as the uintentionally introduced changes can have widespread effect, especially when commercialization goes into the full swing and the checking will be no better than it was for the "slimming drug" and commercially motivated companies will "cut the expenses" to maximize profits and cut on the testing, or even worse consiouslly introduce harmfull organisms for short-term benefit to the company and to the deteriment of the society.

Just that time it won't be a slimming drug ruining lives of thousands of people but a GMO altering lives of millions.

If you are saying there is potential to make mistakes then I have to agree, but have you thought about the benefits of GM crops? They are far cheaper and yeild way better. They get more from land, and can work in soil not as well treated. Imagine the implications of that for the 3rd world!
 
sytaylor said:
Joe DeFuria said:
Yeah...but what if he also had serrated teeth and breathed fire!

You've comically stumbled on the crux of the argument. The "What if'ers" as I call them. What if you didn't have the technology the know-how or even the slightest possibility of that happening?

What if is the main point in prevention rather than fixing when it's all broken.

I am sure that preventing commercialization of GMO would not have serious effects on society nor here nor anywhere else, while commercialization will have.... and I think negative on the whole.

Certainly commercialization will happen eventually, IMHO later is better than now as later we will know more - and if you say when is that later, it's when we really need it as in an example that I posted in the other thread - ie... a crop dying out and similar. (need to grow wheat on mars :D )
 
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