NV31 to make it into nForce beginning of next year
- Thread starter McElvis
- Start date
Eeek?! As little as we know, isn't NV31 supposed to be a full DX9 part? I don't believe its gonna be just a "lower clocked NV30" as has been stated some places before, but instead a cut down version of it (lower clock, less pipes/TMUs). Either way, as a low-end DX9 part, it'll probably perform rather nicely and 'd finally be an incredible up-to-date value part if it comes at the right price (unlike GF"4"MX). Just how cheap does it need to be in production, if they want to introduce an nForce2 with NV31 core onboard? If Anand is right (and he rarely jests), that'd be a hell of an integrated platform solution, there got to be some major strings attached. I was really curious about NV31 before, but now... 
Integrated graphics will never be good...I don't care how much time passes or the "bar is raised", they're still going to seriously lag behind actual graphics cards for a variety of reasons. In other words, don't get too excited about this even if true. Personally, I think the NForce would be a lot more attractive if they just removed the crappy graphics chip. As it is I'll never buy a board knowing I'll have to pay for a chip I won't ever use.
Well if you would read the reviews/articles, you would see that NVidia is offering exactly that -- nForce2 with/without integrated graphics, and nForce2 with/without integrated Dolby audio.
For you, you'll never use the chip. But there are millions of business desktops out there and "home computers" (value) bought by moms and dads that will benefit from good integrated video. Currently, people are using Intel's shitty integrated video. The GF4MX is a quantum leap better for these people.
For you, you'll never use the chip. But there are millions of business desktops out there and "home computers" (value) bought by moms and dads that will benefit from good integrated video. Currently, people are using Intel's shitty integrated video. The GF4MX is a quantum leap better for these people.
Nagorak said:
Never say never. Integrated graphics has so far only been used for low-cost purposes, but I think it holds the potential to allow for some other very nice benefits. Certainly the first thing they need to do is incorporate dedicated high-speed memory for the GPU. Sharing the system memory just won't cut it. But if, sometime in the future, they include high speed dedicated memory that has direct access to the CPU as well as the GPU, it would certainly allow for some interesting optimizations and speed boosts. Not to mention the possibility of loading textures and geometry data directly into graphic memory from the hard disk to speed up load times.
Unfortunately so many people are content with an "MX" level of performance, and so many others scorn the idea of integrated graphics solely based on it's historically bad performance, that there isn't really a market for a high performance integrated graphics solution right now. Two years from now, I wouldn't be so sure. I bet if NVIDIA and the motherboard manufacturers put their mind to it, the graphics performance of motherboards with nForce3 chips could be just as good as the high end NVIDIA-based video cards.
DemoCoder said:
Obviously I was talking about myself. I did read an article about it, but I did not see anything to suggest the Nforce would be available without onboard video. If that's true then I welcome it. It'll actually give me another mobo chipset to choose from besides SiS745 (I refuse to use Via after my bad experiences with all their chipsets). Edit: ok I see it now, my bad.
Also, I don't really view "integration" as being a terribly wonderful thing. The great thing about computers at the moment is the fact that they are modular and upgradable. If you need a new sound card, you buy one, you don't have to buy a whole new computer. Even if an entirely integrated high end solution came out to be cheaper, I probably would still avoid it for that reason. I suspect a lot of other people are the same way. That's also why I think aiming for the high end with integrated mobos is kind of a waste of time.
Good quality integrated mobos are wellcome, see this Anantech´s Value SOHO article: http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.html?i=1652
The system total cost US$600 without software
Next year Barton will have 512kb l2 cache (lower traffic), mobos will use the DDR400, better memory controllers and .13 micron chips with much larger caches. What about somekind of low cost PC/XBox hybrid? Every kid will want one 8)
The system total cost US$600 without software
Next year Barton will have 512kb l2 cache (lower traffic), mobos will use the DDR400, better memory controllers and .13 micron chips with much larger caches. What about somekind of low cost PC/XBox hybrid? Every kid will want one 8)
I'm a little bit confused.
Isn't NV18 nVidia's next "MX-level" GPU? And isn't it a DX8.0 part? I think it will hit the shelves this autumn on add-in cards, and we will see the IGP version of it in the first quarter of next year. So I'm pretty sure we won't see any DX9-compliant IGP until next summer.
Isn't NV18 nVidia's next "MX-level" GPU? And isn't it a DX8.0 part? I think it will hit the shelves this autumn on add-in cards, and we will see the IGP version of it in the first quarter of next year. So I'm pretty sure we won't see any DX9-compliant IGP until next summer.
You never know. Maybe NVIDIA's production people have finally gotten tired of having 15+ different parts active at once and they're trying to consolidate by cancelling some intermediate projects.
DemoCoder said:
Exactly. Heck, a GF4MX has superior graphics performance that what the vast majority of PC users have right now. I believe sometimes people on these forums get a serious case of tunnel-vision with respect to what your average joe is aware of.
It's not as if the lack of integrated chipsets would mean everyone would go out and buy a ti4600 folks, which is the impression I sometimes get from those that bemoan these offerings. Lets face it: The PC media experience has to get better out of the box, without requiring a $200 video card addition. Look around, you still see 2.5ghz P4 systems selling with TNT2 cards. Nforce is good for the PC industry, the entry-level machine is a large component of software sales, raise that level and you raise the experience for all PC users. Like it or lump it, Xbox2 and PS3 will be competition for the PC as an entertainment platform (they already are now to a more limited extent), the PC has to become easier and deliver a more compelling experience at these low-end price points.
Heck, just the ease at which a system with a decent graphics card, great sound, firewire, USB etc can be installed is a huge plus. Install your OS, double-click a single package, boom - you're up to date with all your components. Sweet.
I was dissapointed that Nforce didn't take off, but you can understand why - far too delayed, and far too pricey for a new kid on the block without any solid track record. Nforce2 looks to fix all that, along with giving OEM's a slew of options if they don't share Nvidia's outlook on what "inexpensive" is. Looks great at this early stage. One of those mini-Shuttle PC's, provided it comes with an AGP slot, would be a LAN gamers dream, and even without AGP would make one hell of a Tivo/DVD/MP3 player to sit alongside the TV.
If Nvidia keeps aggresively raising the bar like this and forcing other chipset makers to follow suit, the question won't be if the PC industry can fend off Sony's obvious intentions to rule the living space of the future, rather it will be if Sony can survive your $500 Nforce PC.
I'm somewhat skeptical of Nvidia's claim that the Nforce2 IGP will provide graphics performance "between a GF4MX440->460", considering the bandwidth shared between all devices is basically the same as the bandwidth on a GF4-440. There have been some enhancements however to the memory latency, so we'll see.
BoddoZerg said:
Perhaps that's due to the fact the PC they just bought can barely run 2 year old 3D titles decently? I don't expect PC game sales to fly through the roof if nforce2 takes off, but the fact remains that the majority of PC's sold basically rule out modern 3D gaming off the bat unless you actively know what to look for, which most people don't. Nforce may ultimately have little impact, but I can't see providing graphics performance that's a mile ahead of any other integrated solution will hurt the market when such individuals would stick with whatever was on the motherboard in the first place. Who knows how many PC game experiences have been killed when a PC user with their $1500 new rig "equipped" with a TNT2/Intel Extreme graphics buys a modern title to only see it look like crap and chug along. They figure "PC gaming sucks!", and go buy a console.
The complexity of the market is a significant barrier to expanding PC gaming beyond its niche. Consoles (and other dedicated video hardware, like Tivo) sell for a variety of reasons, but one of them is due to ease of use. You make a good step towards that goal in the PC scene if you provide a baseline, dirt-cheap platform that at least gives graphics performance some attention instead of an afterthought, as it is now. The fact is, we don't really know the market for well-engineered integrated graphics, so of course the average user with a low-end box isn't going to run anything more advanced than Powerpoint, the machine isn't capable. At least with Nforce 2, they have the option if they so desire.
Well ,look at it this way. Nvidia and ATI will likely have DX9 cards as their high and ultra high end cards this year. For the mainstream they'll likely have DX8.1 cards (This is all public information). Now, to be honest, the problem with Ultra high and high end cards is that they cost $399. Only a very small % of people buy cards that cost upwards of $199.
So what happens when your process matures and everything is on .13 micron? DX9 top to bottom. Nvidia did this with Geforce2 (MX), they didn't with Geforce3 because of the .15um process, and you can imagine them doing it with .13um cards, speaking hypothetically.
Now what happens if you're ATI? You're on hypothetically .15um . What happens when you move it to .13?
Just some hypothetical thoughts....
So what happens when your process matures and everything is on .13 micron? DX9 top to bottom. Nvidia did this with Geforce2 (MX), they didn't with Geforce3 because of the .15um process, and you can imagine them doing it with .13um cards, speaking hypothetically.
Now what happens if you're ATI? You're on hypothetically .15um . What happens when you move it to .13?
Just some hypothetical thoughts....