"MS takes sweet time with Xbox2" -Nvidia

chaphack

Veteran
This of course led to a discussion on X-Box 2. There are no "official" plans for an X-Box 2, but Microsoft is of course continually re-assessing the situation. As such there are no concrete plans from any manufacturing concerning X-Box 2. When information does come out, it will be from Microsoft and not a 3rd party like NVIDIA or ATI. In other words, X-Box 2 is more rumor than reality now. Sony is very much in the lead with the PS-2, and they have introduced very early specs for the PS-3 which is slated for a 2005 introduction. These specs show a very capable product utilizing the Supercell processor, but with such a specification and open ended architecture, Sony could easily raise the bar when competing products are announced. Microsoft has a very daunting task to produce something to compete, and Microsoft does not want to expose its hand until Sony is firmly committed to the design and specs of the PS-3. -1

Microsoft is taking its own sweet time in choosing a partner, and doing so at an early date would only hurt its chances at producing a competitive product. This also keeps AMD and Intel in the running as a future partner, as both have very promising future products to base the CPU off of. The big question for Microsoft is exactly how much CPU power the X-Box 2 will need? The current X-Box has a 700 MHz Pentium !!! derivative, and that is not exactly a vector processing powerhouse. The PS-3 is all about vector processing, but seemingly not so much about graphics, so this could be an area where Microsoft may have an edge. -2
We will not hear anything from Microsoft this year, and of course announcing anything in 2005 would be too late. From this we can infer that Microsoft will probably make an X-Box 2 announcement in early 2004. Another reason for Microsoft not wanting to announce X-Box 2 early is that it wants to keep excitement about the current X-Box at a fever pitch, and not dilute it by announcing specs on future products. NVIDIA has worked very closely with Microsoft, and they fully expect to work with Microsoft again.

The current X-Box still has a lot of headroom left in it, and future titles will help to expose that headroom. The Halo series will again come to the fore in the next few months with the introduction of Halo 2. Now that developers are comfortable with programming for the X-Box, more graphically intense titles will be hitting the shelves very shortly. Halo 2 will feature some very impressive graphics by uncovering the advanced bump mapping capabilities of the X-Box GPU, as well as increased lighting complexity. The next generation of games will keep enthusiasts quite happy with the X-Box. -3
This is a very natural progression for consoles, as the initial games are typically not as impressive graphically as those that come several years after. We have seen this with the PS-1 and now the PS-2, and the X-Box will be no different. Developers will find ways to introduce advanced rendering functions that were initially absent, and this helps to give that particular console a longer life as well as greater perceived value.


1. Glad to hear MS waiting and waiting for the final PS3 specs(which i expect to be early 2004). Once they got that, it is WHAM! Full speed ahead for Xbox2 specs. :oops:

2. As speculated, PS3 will be a supercharged-up PS2, raw brute polygon pushing via general purpose CPUs. ATI thinks so, now it is Nvidia's turn. Xbox2 might again have an edge in the image department, MS just need to play the cards right with ATI or Nvidia. 8)

3. Good to hear Xbox still having huge untapped potential in the box . I fully expect to see dynamic pixel lighting and shadows. Hopefully, more 720p games too. :oops:
 
ATI thinks so, now it is Nvidia's turn.

Hmmm, let's hope they're right... for if the pixel capabilities are as strong as the vertex capabilities... they're gonna have a tough time ahead(after all after nearly 2yrs they didn't exceed the previous playstation's raw rendering power by much.)...
 
I'm not sure what out specing the PS 3 accomplishes. I don't think the average consumer will notice much of a difference in image quality between the PS 3 and a X-Box 2 even if Microsoft tops the PS 3.
 
chaphack said:
Higher specs hardware gives developers more headroom to exhibit their talent. ;)

Higher budget and longer development period will be better than just higher spec for developers and artists to exhibit their talent.

Higher spec with similar tight budget and time with emphasis on graphics will only give you sub-par games.
 
Higher specs + Higher bugdet + Longer development time = winnAR.
At least with higher specs, you can take off some concerns of the developers. One less restriction, one less worry. ;)
 
Msoft has stated that they want to get xbox2 out BEFORE PS3, meaning PS3 will undoubtably become the most powerfulll console.

Although, if they are released at the same time.. I really just think PS3 will be the more powerfull console.
 
Paul said:
Msoft has stated that they want to get xbox2 out BEFORE PS3, meaning PS3 will undoubtably become the most powerfulll console.

Although, if they are released at the same time.. I really just think PS3 will be the more powerfull console.

I dont think so. Before does not mean a year or two, most likely a few months. Hell, it might be even on the same day. Like Sony releasing PS3 in Japan while MS release XB2 in US. :D

The biggest issue is how to make use of the nextgen power. I want Sony to really help developers tap into PS3. PS2 might be ass, but that is over now, do something for the new generation. Sega did that with DC and Nintendo with GC.

Unless, Sony is getting too arrogant for their own good. Kutaragi: " You WILL develop on PS3. Crazy architecture or not, you WILL make games on our Playstation!" :oops:
 
Really pretty much the only reason Xbox was more powerfull than PS2 is because it came out far after it.

Not gonna happen this time, because releasing Xbox2 after PS3 will result in Xbox2 failing sales wise. I just fail to see how anything would be able to catch up to it sales wise.

That article is outdated, Nvidia's head guy seems cautious about Xbox-2 as heard in an interview. He even says ps3 will be a 'miracle' machine. Don't be shocked if Nvidia wants nothing to do with Xbox2

"The PS-3 is all about vector processing, but seemingly not so much about graphics, so this could be an area where Microsoft may have an edge."

More speculation and rhetoric. This is NOT a fact, we don't know anything about PS3 except for the patent. Which really doesn't say anything concrete about the rasterizer. Sony also talked to Nvidia about the prospect of next gen consoles.. hmm?

Sony isn't going to make the mistake they made with PS2(poor graphics synthesizer) I fully expect the GS3 to be incredible and improve greatly upon the current GS.

Unless Msoft delay's the Xbox for a year, I do not see how they can match PS3 spec wise. Which they won't do, they stated they will get the Xbox2 out before PS3.

Bill gates even said that the xbox2 will have tivo capabilities and such.
 
"Before does not mean a year or two, most likely a few months."

A few months isn't going to give them any kind of head start to compete with the PS3. Hell with all the hype for PS3, Xbox2 could turn into the dreamcast. With people saying "hey lets wait for the godly ps3!!"
 
As for the current Xbox and it's headroom. I agree, the games we are seeing that will be out soon look amazing.

And I will buy most if them if the gameplay is pretty good. Games like BC, fable, halo2 are really showing the Xbox's power.

I wasn't really impresed with halo..
 
I... dont..quite get you.....

Fillrate, particles, vram bandwith, cpu... nigh unscathed(consoles)...

Polygon and vertex rendering, not even 2x after what is nearly 3 cycles(18months) in the gpu arena... all developed on a constrained manufacturing technology...

Now, if the pixel area in the next console proves as brutal and enduring, the only way they'll get superior perf. would be with a delay.... Of course that might not happen, and sony might actually f@ck up... but let see what cards has destiny given these competitors in this fierce game of poker...

EDITEDii
 
zidanestrife.....you are sounding a lot like Lazy8, Sony's version. Please...... :cry:

For a 18month older product, Xbox has totally exceed my expectations. Cant say the same for DC/PS2. :p

Doesnt the Xbox has like 2X more and yet remain higher with more texture passes?

particles
Isnt particles the result of fillrate? Which means Xbox still has the advantage?

vram bandwith
It is embedded ram. It is expensive, it is small, it needs to be fast.

cpu... nigh unscathed
I thought Faf said the CPU is as good as DC SH2, what it has good, is the VUs. Xbox has 2 VS too. ;)
 
hmmm, vu0 can supposedly be used inconjunction with the core, while leaving vu1 for the gphx calcs.

As for fillrate/particles ;)

EDIT:

And while I do constantly go back to particles, fillrate, and vram bandwith... I do not claim those make the gphx superior to other consoles ( I only claim it makes it technically superior in that area, nothing else, nothing more.),... unlike a certain person and his rez praise.... ;)
 
Sony going it alone with the graphics rasterizer just like last time is not cause for great optimism IMO.

On the other hand, there is no other market which warrants the investments you need to make to develop a massively parallel general purpose architecture targetted at Consoles. So waiting is not an option, it will mean that when you start looking there will be nothing competetive on the market and it will be too late to start up architecture research. For the graphics part this is a reasonable course of action, for the processing part it is not. If this is really m$'s strategy it is a strategy of failure (in a profit sense, they can still buy their share of the market if they want).

I dont think all the speculation came from Mike Hara BTW.
 
true, but we don't know how much the manufacturing handicapped their vision last time... not to mention their access to the nvgpus, and other people dev. high level languages, makes me look at their next design as being under a more promissing light.

According to some sony sees the trends and escalates them to some s!ckly ridiculously high number... The trends are pixel effects, and their precision... if taken to a whole new level, it could make for a formidable architecture, something many are not expecting.

EDITED
 
Don't forget though that sony isn't the only company with deep pockets for r&d . Ms has alot of tech to take advantage of. There will be new general cpus , athlon 64 and the newer p4s. There will also be at least the r500 and nv50 (even if things slow down we are talking about 2 years -3 years away) And really if ms wants to they can loose a crap load of money and add two graphics chips in there for a double wammy .

At the same time i expect sony to have learned from the gs and add more suport for thigns in hardware. How much so is the question. THe other question is if they will have all the bugs out of .65nm and the cell chpi will be cheap enough to put in a 300$ console.

Nintendo. Well they will most likely have a middle of the road system with nothing big coming out of them .
 
Xbox2 won't have a CPU that will even touch what Cell will be able to do, so they will have to rely on the GPU like they did for Xbox.

Although Sony looks to be making a good GPU too.. so we will have to wait and see.
 
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