How should Palestine win its independance?

[Druga Runda]

Prompted by the other thread I thought to post this...

At the moment they are trying with suicide bombers of any kind, and some political process...

well overall their intention to anhilate Israel and to deny Israelis right on a state is not acceptable... so will they change these points from their charter, and what can make them do so?

http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm

The articles of the Palestinian charter that Israel calls for amending them are:
Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinian Arab people and an integral part of the great Arab homeland, and the people of Palestine are part of the Arab nation.
Article 9:
Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine and is therefore a strategy and not a tactic. The Palestinian Arab people affirms its absolute resolution and abiding determination to pursue the armed struggle and to march forward towards the armed popular revolution, to liberate its homeland and restore its right to a natural life, and to exercise its right of self-determination and national sovereignty.
Article 19:
The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is null and void from the very beginning, whatever time has elapsed because it was done contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and their national right to their homeland and contradicts with the principles embodied in the charter of the UN, the first of which is the right of self-determination.
Article 20:
The Balfour Declaration, the mandate document and what has been based upon them are considered null and void. The claim of a historical or spiritual tie between Jews and Palestine does not tally with the historical realities nor with the constituencies of statehood in their true sense. Judaism in its character as a religion of revelation, is not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Jews are not one people with an independent personality. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong.
Article 21:
The Palestinian Arab people in expressing itself through the armed Palestinian revolution, rejects every solution that is a substitute for a complete liberation of Palestine. and rejects all alternative plans that aim at the settlement of the Palestinian issue or its internationalization.
Article 22:
Zionism is a political movement organically related to the world imperialism and is hostile to all movements of liberation and progress in the world. It is a racist and fanatic movement in its formation, aggressive, expansionist, and colonialist in its aims, fascist and nazi in its means.
Israel is the tool of the Zionist movement and is a human and geographic base for the world imperialism. It is a concentration and a way for imperialism to the heart of the Arab homeland, to strike at the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity and progress.
The special session held by the PNC and the charter amendment

The PNC held a special session on April 24, 1996 and listened to the report made by the legal committee, reviewed the current political conditions, which the Palestinian people and the Arab nations encounter, and so the PNC decided: "Depending on the Independence Declaration and the political statement adopted by the PNC in its 19th session in Gaza on Nov. 11, 1988 which stressed resolving conflicts by peaceful means and adopting the principal of two states, the PNC decides to:

*

First: Amend the articles in the National charter that contradict with the letters exchanged between the PLO and the government of Israel on Sept. 9-10, 1993.

* Second: The PNC authorizes the Legal Committee to draft a new charter to be presented at the first meeting to be held by the Central Council.

so it seems that the change of attitude was close but these days it seems really far away...





and there is some Israeli opinins on the topic before the last proper proposals for the peace process fell out of of favour...

http://www.ourjerusalem.com/action/story/action20011119.html

Excerpts from Netanyahu's comments:

"The Likud, offically, is against a Palestinian state, and has never changed this stand... Peres is one of the few remaining Israelis who has any trust in Arafat. To come now, after 14 months of terrorism, and give him a prize of a state?! [British Prime Minister] Blair and others said to the Taliban, "Stop supporting terrorism or be thrown out of power" - and they were in fact thrown out. But here, we're doing the opposite: Arafat perpetrates terrorism, and then receives a prize of staying in power!"

"This would be a major mistake, because Arafat will be able to control his borders, make treaties with Iran and Iraq, control his airspace - for once he has the status of a state, he will demand these things, and the international community will give them to him."

"Aside from that, what kind of agreement can be made with him? He violates every agreement. Peres talks about a demilitarized state - Arafat will [certainly not] keep his state demilitarized?"

well we all know it is a classic stalemate... but what to do to untangle the situation?

Israel coming back to 1967 borders, withdrawing settlers and Palestinians giving up Jerusalem? Likely? ... not really...

Besides what's your opinon on the wall. I actually support it as a practical means of control until the situation doesn't get better.

 

[Legion]

Prompted by the other thread I thought to post this...

At the moment they are trying with suicide bombers of any kind, and some political process...

If you choose to believe the terrorist jihadist movement has anything to do with freedom i suppose and not their interest in destroying Israel which has been their motive since '48.

well overall their intention to anhilate Israel and to deny Israelis right on a state is not acceptable... so will they change these points from their charter, and what can make them do so?

They haven't in the last 60 years or so why would they do so suddenly especially when the behavior is still being incouraged by the likes of Arafat and his terrorist subsidies.

so it seems that the change of attitude was close but these days it seems really far away...

Again, the root of the problem are the propaganda and terrorism. Start dealing with these issues and we will start seeing resolutions. Unfortunately Arafat will not abide by regulations in UNSCR 242 and the Oslow Accords.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_242.php

and there is some Israeli opinins on the topic before the last proper proposals for the peace process fell out of of favour...

There is a long list of reasons i can provide you as to why. However, terrorism isn't helping the issue at all.

well we all know it is a classic stalemate... but what to do to untangle the situation?

Israel coming back to 1967 borders, withdrawing settlers and Palestinians giving up Jerusalem? Likely? ... not really...

Its '67 borders? You mean that Armistace line of '49?

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

If they returned to their '67 borders they wouldn't be moving far.

They shouldn't have to. The Arabs lost their land in an offensive war against Israel. Before that this so called palistinians were citizens under the rule of Jordan who illegally annexed the land without complaint from its populas.

I saw an arab state has already been established. It has been Jordan and they should return to the land of which they were citizens.

Considering the current problem is directly related to Arab land grabbing and Genocidal wars i see Syria, Egypt and Jordan as both morally and historically responsible. I feel they should take in their respective refugees.

Will Jewish refugees be given the right to return to Samaria and Judea or many of the other arab nations they were driven out of?

Aside from these matters assuming handing the Palistinians a state will fix their problems is absolutely ludicrous. They haven't and economy or system of leadership proven by the failure of Arafat to provide a stable economy or political system. The PA is falling apart and highly unstable. Arafat rules by controling the palistinian media. Any thought these palis would be better off under his leadership is just patently foolish. So, intotal Arafat and the arabs have nothing to show for the Intifada.

Besides what's your opinon on the wall. I actually support it as a practical means of control until the situation doesn't get better.

I support it as well. You will always have people attack it.

There are walls between the US and Mexico. Are they apartheid walls as well?

-btw i wish people would stop calling them Palistinians as though they were unique or specific.

furthermore Palistine was a Historic region first enforced by Hadrian in place of "the land of Israel". The name is derived from Philistine, or the enemies of Israel. With that said Palistine already has its independance.

 

[VtC]

... so will they change these points from their charter, and what can make them do so?

I may be cynical, but I don't think any significant progress is going to be made until the old guard is replaced in both the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The PA needs to get rid of Arafat and his lackeys, and Israel needs to get rid of Sharon and his lackeys. Both of these things need to happen. History has shown that one side cleaning up its act unilaterally isn't going to accomplish anything.

Unfortunately, while Sharon can be removed democratically, it doesn't seem that there is any realistic democratic option when it comes to Arafat.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting assassination with regards to Arafat. I'm suggesting that nobody should hold their breath waiting for a peaceful solution to this mess.

 

[Legion]

Unfortunately, while Sharon can be removed democratically, it doesn't seem that there is any realistic democratic option when it comes to Arafat.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting assassination with regards to Arafat. I'm suggesting that nobody should hold their breath waiting for a peaceful solution to this mess.

Doesn't keep people from spouting his democractically elected position. Right, he was as democratically elected as Mao Zedung was. Arafat controls the palistinian media and distorts palistinian perception. Of course he'd win a popular vote, who'd run against him .

 

[nutball]

Ummm... who exactly runs this site:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

???

I mean the FAQ contains questions such as "Are Palestinian Arab terrorists 'Freedom Fighters'?" which is a pretty loaded questio. So it's hardly impartial, and hence I'd be rather hesitant to take anything from that site as "fact".

http://www.palestine-proganda-from-the-other-sides-perspective.org might be a better name.

The Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other, and need their heads banged together. Unfortunately, in both cases, the parties who have most leverage over them (which for Israel is the US, for Palestine the Arab nations and the EU) seem unwilling to do anything meaningful about it.

 

[Legion]

Ummm... who exactly runs this site:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

???

I mean the FAQ contains questions such as "Are Palestinian Arab terrorists 'Freedom Fighters'?" which is a pretty loaded questio. So it's hardly impartial, and hence I'd be rather hesitant to take anything from that site as "fact".

Oh come on. It has been somehting even members of this forum has suggested. THe palis are not freedom fighters as individuals such as maggi (on this very forum) have stated. The article addresses the issue.

http://www.palestine-proganda-from-the-other-sides-perspective.org might be a better name.

The Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other, and need their heads banged together. Unfortunately, in both cases, the parties who have most leverage over them (which for Israel is the US, for Palestine the Arab nations and the EU) seem unwilling to do anything meaningful about it.

I choose not to draw moral equivalents. I completely disagree with the large bulk of palestinian arguments.

 

[London Geezer]

I think we should nuke both parts. Tabula rasa, start from scratch. Not much they're doing for the world anyway, apart from filling headlines every freaking day.

 

[Legion]

I think we should nuke both parts. Tabula rasa, start from scratch. Not much they're doing for the world anyway, apart from filling headlines every freaking day.

What you said got me to thinking. Perhaps if all the europeans christians had massacred the arab muslims and killed all the jews in the holocaust we wouldn't be having problems today and the middleast would still be a place where europeans could rape the land for oil.

I also thought if the bubonic plague had wipped out you europeans you wouldn't have fucked up africa and latin america.

in the future keep your genocidal jokes to yourself.