Global warming

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It doesn't support my preconceptions either, or the research I put into it. I call it a fraud as well.

Not outright, but I haven't seen or read anything so far that is above the uncertainty level of the models proposed, or has any projected value.

So you don't believe the models, or you don't believe the empirical data regarding glacial ice loss, temperature rising, sea levels rising, etc ?

If your preconceptions don't fit the data, your preconceptions are wrong, - simple as that.

And why are preconceptions bad on forehand? They have to be debunked first, because they might turn out to have been spot-on. That's how models evolve into Theories.
Bias.

Cheers
 
When the greener alternatives make sense, they should be developed to improve everybody's quality of life. That means any alternative that's not going to cost more than fossil fuels, and not going to force to change our lifestyle to live in cramped conditions or sit next to smelly people in a bus or a train, aka nuclear only.
Good luck with that. Oil is by definition something that can't be competed against because of the very high energy return from spent energy for pumping/producing it. IIRC biofuels are somewhere around 5-15x less energy-efficient than getting oil from a few km's under ground to your engine. Solar, wind and pretty much everything else is even worse.
 
What makes you think that it won't occur? What makes you so sure?
Because cloud cover is a fast feedback, and so if it were a major problem, it would have made our models inaccurate before now.

Just like those people in the Climategate scandal, if you pray for your results to turn out one way or the other, or even more, fudge the data to make it so, it's called "climate science," or "fraud" for short.
That whole thing was a manufactured controversy. There was no manufacturing of data.

The models are inaccurate and we only have cloud cover data for a very short time.
Say what? The models replicate past warming very well, and the current level of warming also is a good match to models done previously.

Need I remind you, the global warming models have all been revised down over time.
That's incorrect. The models batted about in the 80's have been revised down, because at the time, the carbon forcing was thought to be higher. When those models are corrected for the forcing level, they very accurately match our current behavior. The models in the 2000's, however, have underestimated the effects of warming since then.

For the record, I am not saying AGW will stop or continue, as I can simply accept that we don't know enough It's obviously been happening for a while, but the models are completely unreliable when you want to know about the next century. I don't trust climate scientists and their models based on what I saw and how they quickly revise their predictions yearly. There is no saying if it will continue or at what rate it will continue.
So, you don't trust them because they learn new things? Classy. The overall conclusions of climate science have not changed in over 20 years. So why the fuck don't you trust the overall conclusions, as they have remained solid despite learning much more about the details?
 
That whole thing was a manufactured controversy. There was no manufacturing of data.

Indeed it was. I saw an interview with one of the key journalists who "broke" the story and who has been a major driving force behind the "scandal" since.

The idiot had almost no understanding whatsoever of the science behind the supposed misleading presentation or of how or why the data was structured the way it was. He simply saw an eamail from one of the scientists that he interpreted (with no scientific grounding) to mean they falsified the data. He then presented that to the media - who have similarly no understanding and it snowballed from there.

The truth is that the change applied to the presenation was made at the request of those it was being created for and although the scientists email referred to it as a "trick" or somthing similar, its was actually a perfectally scientifically consistent change to make and multiple independant reviews have since found that to be true.

It just goes to show what ignorance combined with bias can do in the wrong hands.
 
The truth is that the change applied to the presenation was made at the request of those it was being created for and although the scientists email referred to it as a "trick" or somthing similar, its was actually a perfectally scientifically consistent change to make and multiple independant reviews have since found that to be true.
Actually, the trick itself was just showing two different types of climate data on the same plot to better compare them.
 
Well, Qatar has the highest per capita CO2 emissions and they have no income tax and a budget surplus, then there's Kuwait. Focus on them before focusing on my country, it should be an easier task since they are already in a desert. There is nothing you can do about the US.
 
And you have reached that conclusion while not understanding the science in the slightest and not being a scientist yourselves, right?
I have reached that conclusion from reading NASA's climate change webpage. I also looked at the predicted negative impacts on North America from the same site, and saw that there was nothing to worry about. Our economy and industry cannot be sabotaged by imposing more fuel taxes here. In the end, we are more important than people living in other countries, and people living in other countries also think they're more important than us too, and would not do a thing if AGW wasn't going to affect them too much.

Produce biofuel for the same price as pumping it from the ground, or make electric/PHEV cars that are just as convenient and inexpensive as gasoline cars, and we'll talk. I am ok with subsidies for those industries too, since they need to gear up so we're not caught flat footed when oil becomes too expensive.
 
Well, Qatar has the highest per capita CO2 emissions and they have no income tax and a budget surplus, then there's Kuwait. Focus on them before focusing on my country, it should be an easier task since they are already in a desert. There is nothing you can do about the US.
So? The US has the largest gross CO2 emissions. The US is the single, most important nation to get on board for this particular issue. China is the second largest, but getting the US on board would go a long way towards us being able to put political pressure on China to do the same.
 
I have reached that conclusion from reading NASA's climate change webpage.
You said climate science has very high uncertainty and doubt compared to other sciences. Which sciences are you comparing it against? What is your metric of comparison?
 
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So? The US has the largest gross CO2 emissions. The US is the single, most important nation to get on board for this particular issue. China is the second largest, but getting the US on board would go a long way towards us being able to put political pressure on China to do the same.
US is full of people who have guns and we don't want Eurotrash who live in cramped apartments and drive tinny cars, if they drive at all, to tell us what to do. We live here because we want big homes and comfortable cars. I'd do anything in my power to prevent such legislation myself.
 
You said climate science has very high uncertainty and doubt compared to other sciences. Which sciences are you comparing it against? What is your metric of comparison?
Physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, etc are good examples of more reputable and more respectable sciences compared to climate "science".
 
Physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, etc are good examples of more reputable and more respectable sciences compared to climate "science".

Again, what is your metric of comparison.

Even in Physics, chemistry and biology, if you look hard enough you'll find examples where there is wide agreement and yet those agreements ignore wrinkles that are minor enough to not upset the overall agreement. These sort of things happen all the time in all the sciences.
 
From Ars: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/02/screensaver-blames-floods-on-climate-change.ars

...

One of the two papers doesn't even bother, instead focusing on trends. It uses 50 years of weather data to identify single-day and five-day instances of extreme precipitation in the Northern Hemisphere. They then compared the historic record to ensembles of eight climate models, run under three different conditions: a stable climate, natural forcings like solar and volcanic activity, and natural forcings plus human-induced ones. The work suggests that, given the trends in solar and volcanic activity, we'd actually expect to see fewer extreme weather events. Instead, there's been an upward trend in one-day events that the authors ascribe to anthropogenic forcings. Five-day events show a much weaker linkage.

Still, that's just a general trend. The second paper looks at a specific event, a series of extreme floods that took place in England and Wales in the year 2000. Here, the authors used a single model of the Northern Hemisphere climate and fed it the relevant data on things such as ocean temperatures and ice cover; they also created a control scenario with conditions approximating those in 1900. The outputs of these scenarios were fed into a runoff model of the affected area in order to determine how often events of similar magnitude occurred.

...

All the scenarios undoubtedly included flooding. But, by comparing the results from runs based on the actual conditions to ones without anthropogenic forcing, the authors could make an estimate of how climate change has influenced the risks of an extreme event. In nine out of 10 cases, that risk went up by 20 percent or more; in two out of three cases, it was raised by more than 90 percent. Given those probabilities, the authors conclude that climate change is very likely to have contributed to the floods of 2000.

...

Interesting?
 
Again, what is your metric of comparison.

My metric of comparison is the controversy around the subject. No field of science is as tarnished or as skeptically approached as climate science. No other field has their "climategate" scandal. No other field is getting grants off of scaremongering, they are like those idiots who say it's going to be rapture in 2010...2011...2012, etc.

I don't trust climate science, don't trust Al Gore, don't trust the sharks that already tried to pass legislation for carbon credits for their own financial gain, etc. Climate change, regardless of the accuracy of the science behind it, is a political cause. If they win, their supporters will financially benefit, and vice versa.

I'm ready to confront anyone telling me to lower my emissions, by force if necessary.
 
Making models fit data from 10 years ago is an entirely different thing than saying this and that will happen 50 years into the future, don't you agree?

Models have to explain both current and past happenings. The past is a good way to test the models and work on them in order to explain the future. For example thinking back to the past I ate undercooked chicken and got sick and I use that to model that if I eat undercooked chicken I could get sick in the future.

Also I'd blame floods on poor infrastructure rather than climate change.

I would think that rain falls just the same whether you live in a dirt shack with a hole in the back yard to crap into as compared to a city with running water and flushing toilets.
 
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