Forcing DX8 features by a tool

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Newcomer
Amazing!
TOMMTI-SYSTEMS:
I placed the 1.4'er beta on-line. It contains some new features, which particularly maps with DX8 lacking features (pixel Shader, Cube Mapping, Bump Mapping, Environment Mapping) help could to master DX8 Games and applications (e.g. 3D-Mark 2001 SE) nevertheless.

attachment.php

(placed by OW in the German www.3dcenter.de forum)
http://www.tommti-systems.com/main-Dateien/TOOLS/3danalyzer-v14beta.zip
 
Yeah its a very useful tool. It added over 300 3dmarks to my 3dmark2001 score when I used it to run the nature test with my Kyro II. It ran quite well too, 15fps average at 1024x768x32, and that's on a Duron 1ghz.
 
Teasy said:
Yeah its a very useful tool. I added over 300 3dmarks to my 3dmark2001 score when I used it to run the nature test with my Kyro II. It ran quite well too, 15fps average at 1024x768x32, and that's on a Duron 1ghz.

But did it render correctly? No. The Kyro II can't support the pixel shader operations needed to render the water.

What good is adding points to your benchmark score if the result is incorrect?
 
What did the water look like on a Kyro II? Did it render at all? (i.e. was it just a white surface?) Or did it attempt to just render a surface texture?
 
OpenGL guy said:
But did it render correctly? No. The Kyro II can't support the pixel shader operations needed to render the water.

What good is adding points to your benchmark score if the result is incorrect?
Nobody will know whether it rendered correctly in stupid mad onion hall of fame :)
Its the "My dick is bigger than yours" thing.
 
Teasy how did you make your Kyro 2 run the Nature test in 3DMark2001 SE? What settings did you use in 3D Analyzer?
 
dominikbehr said:
Nobody will know whether it rendered correctly in stupid mad onion hall of fame :)
Its the "My dick is bigger than yours" thing.

Well, now we have a tool whereby people can make totally bogus results that can be reported to the rest of the world! What a wonderful tool! :rolleyes:

There's a reason why 3D Mark 2001 doesn't run the Nature scene on your Kyro boards: Your board doesn't support the required features. It's totally irrelevant that your score went up 300 points. Want to know what kind of score I can get without rendering anything? Of course not, it's irrelevant (except to nvidia spies ;)).
 
I totally agree with OpenGL guy and Neeyik over in the madonion forums.

Also, the title of this thread "Forcing DX8 features by a tool" is misleading--the features are not forced, but the CAPS are enabled so applications believe a VGA/driver supports a specific feature it doesn't. This can be useful for developers, and is a great thing for getting some games such as "Spider Man the Movie" running on non-TnL boards and the like.

But it's also a 3DMark cheater's wet dream. Too bad, really.

ta,
.rb
 
While I agree that this tool invalidates the 3DMark results it also revealed the shocking truth that the Nature Test is a pretty poor test to start, it does not run on hardware that does not have pixel shaders... but shock horror maybe 2% of the whole test scene actually uses those high-valued Pixel Shaders and all the rest renders perfectly fine on non-pixel shader hardware. Not to mention that the pixel shader effect tested is a simple water reflection shader that can probably be emulated using bumpmapping... To me it looks like this test was created to give a "lot" of extra free points to Pixel Shader Hardware without actually taxing the Pixel Shader... dissapointing since in the end Radeon8500/GF3/4Ti get a lot of extra points for rendering a scene with 2% pixel shaders and 98% bug standard texture effects that any hardware can do !

:devilish:

G~
 
I am sure that MadOnion will be interested in countermeasures against this tool (i.e. ways of detecting the real hardware and the emulation) because his performance analyzer is being used in some sites (i.e. Nvidia, ATI, Valve...) and I am sure they did not get it for free.

So I expect a 3dMark2002 soon :LOL:

Regards
 
For the record ( :D ) I agree fully with you guys, that this tool can be misused (and will for sure by some idiots :rolleyes: ), but I'm still curious to see, what it looks like, when it runs on my Kyro 2, as I'm sure you guys can understand.
Of course I look forward even more to seeing the nature test run on my Parhelia (I hope to have it in three weeks :) ).
 
But did it render correctly? No. The Kyro II can't support the pixel shader operations needed to render the water.

What good is adding points to your benchmark score if the result is incorrect?

On looking at my first post again I can see that I phrased my post wrongly and it sounded like adding the 300 points was the useful part. I actually meant to focus on the running of the test as the useful part and just to mention that it upped my score by 300 points. IMO being able to run the test is useful because allot of people without DX8 hardware have never seen the test in motion and now they can bar the very small use of pixel shaders.

Also this is not the progs only use, far from it. The app has a excellent in game framerate and polygon per frame/per second counter which is extremely useful. As well as performance logging where it writes framerates and polygon counts to a text file as the game runs.

Also the app can help cards without a certain feature to run a game that requires that feature to run. For instance it can help a none HW T&L card to run Spiderman, as well as future new HW T&L only games. Or the E3 Unreal II tech demo and cards without cube mapping (maybe even Doom3 if their is no option to disable cube mapping for cards that don't support that feature).

The prog has many more uses and IMO is an extremely useful app.

Nobody will know whether it rendered correctly in stupid mad onion hall of fame
Its the "My dick is bigger than yours" thing.

I don't even have my scores on madonion's database never mind the hall of fame. But your right, 3dmark2001 and especially its hall of fame is a "My dick is bigger then yours" thing and is full of cheats, pretty pointless if you ask me.

Teasy how did you make your Kyro 2 run the Nature test in 3DMark2001 SE? What settings did you use in 3D Analyzer?

I'm not at home right now, but AFAIR you need to enabled bump maping caps (this should be needed but for some reason it is), cube mapping caps and pixel shader caps. You don't need to enabled HW T&L caps BTW, infact I think the test is a little faster if you just leave HW T&L caps unticked.

Well, now we have a tool whereby people can make totally bogus results that can be reported to the rest of the world! What a wonderful tool!

Well that's certainly useful for cheats but surely your not short sighted enough to think that's all this program is useful for?, or that the possiblity of cheating with this app outweighs its other uses? After all cheating was already rife in the Madonion database long before this app came along.

But it's also a 3DMark cheater's wet dream. Too bad, really.

Yep, and the pixel shader caps thing isn't anywhere near the biggest cheat possible with this app, disabling textures for any card bar Kyro can at least double scores.

But still nobody should blame the app here, its a useful program and has many good uses. If some people want to cheat with it in 3dmark2001 then who cares, lets face it that database was full of cheating long before this app came along.

Like people dont already fake scores in 3DMark 2001 without this tool.

Exactly!
 
hehe :) that tool cannot be used for a cheating...
in 3DMark, it displays "3D Analyzer 1.4" as rendering device, so no one can really proof what card he was actually using. :)

so, Cheaters are easily discovered from ORB. :)
 
Teasy said:
Or the E3 Unreal II tech demo and cards without cube mapping (maybe even Doom3 if their is no option to disable cube mapping for cards that don't support that feature).
Good luck using this wrapper on Doom III... it's an OpenGL program :D
 
Teasy said:
now they can bar the very small use of pixel shaders.
Excuse me if I understand you incorrectly, but do you mean that by using this cheat, people with DX7 class cards can get a glimpse of Pixel Shaders on their systems? IF you mean that, you should go and hide! No PixelShaders are even drawn when using this "utility". They are simply not displayed. If I misapprehended your sentence, please forgive me..

I don't even have my scores on madonion's database never mind the hall of fame. But your right, 3dmark2001 and especially its hall of fame is a "My dick is bigger then yours" thing and is full of cheats, pretty pointless if you ask me.
Excuse me but do you even know how our database works, how we filter out scores that are cheated, how the Hall of Fame is done, and what it is based on? Please do share it with me, as you clearly know.


After all cheating was already rife in the Madonion database long before this app came along.
True, but it has never been this easy. I have already got an email from the author, and we will work together to prevent this util to be used with 3DMark. I have a feeling that game developers will do the same.. There is a reason why for example DOOM III minimum requirements are higher than any other games..

But still nobody should blame the app here, its a useful program and has many good uses. If some people want to cheat with it in 3dmark2001 then who cares, lets face it that database was full of cheating long before this app came along.
Again.. :p You seem to know how our database works and what kind of data there is, don't you? I haven't seen you in our offices, so how is it possible?

This "utility" enables ways to cheat in 3DMark and possibly other D3D benchmarks, so yes we can and will blame the utility. Of course we hope that people would have brains enough not to use it when benchmarking, but there are always a few who don't understand.. I admit that the "utility" is cool in some aspects, but I do question its usefulness and goals.

Sorry if I sound a tad PO'd, but this issue has been my main concerns for a few days already. I have a poo-load of other things that has been on hold due to this! I'm going to work hard to get this util not to work in 3DMark, and try to encourage other developers to do the same. It's causing more harm than good. Trust me!
 
Madonion dude,

Get serious.... Even JC cant stop all cheaters. Are you actually trying to tell us that your "special" database is beyond the ceat? :rolleyes:

Please I would wager that at least 50% of the scores in the hall of fame are spoofed in some fasion.

Another thing this clearly brings to light. the ABSOUTE bias and Favrotism your company shows Nvidia. If there was any doubt before it is GONE now. A simple water reflection that could easily be done with EMBM sends Nvidia scores more than DOUBBLE every one elses hardware. Im not leaving ATi out here, either, but they are clearly simply recieving the benefit as an afterthought.

This is outright fraud, in my mind.

The little respect i had for you people and your god forsaken benchmark, is *completely* gone.
 
I'm going to work hard to get this util not to work in 3DMark, and try to encourage other developers to do the same. It's causing more harm than good. Trust me!

How can it be doing more harm than good?

If it means that a DX8.1 game can be run on a DX7 graphics card (even though there will be missing visuals), then surely this is a good thing.

People with older generation cards can still play the latest games. Developers would sell more games, as the vast majority of people out there still have DX7 class cards.

So what if a few people use it to cheat at some benchmarks. The only people who would use it to cheat are just "mines better than yours" people anyway. They don't interest me in the slightest.
 
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