Design possibilities for the next GBA

[Phil]

do we really need FMV's on handhelds?
and with the power this thing is supposed to have, would it not be better to just stick to real time cut scenes?
current generation consoles can already get away with real time cut scenes...
of course FMV will always look better but we're talking about a handheld here...

who's speaking of FMV? 1.8 GB is over 7 times more capacity than a 256MB ROM cartridge will give developers. Not only that, but it's a given that a UMD will be cheaper than any cartridge will ever be. What we're speaking about here is FREEDOM - having memory to do what ever you want. So yeah, why not FMVs if you have the space to store it?

Back then in the SNES days, no one thought FMVs were needed, yet they came due to space being there. It's the advancement of technology. Fact is, if Nintendo goes with cartridges, their most likely behind in technology AGAIN - if they don't, they're damned to give up their backwards compatibility (at least, if they don't find a cheap solution to get those old cartridges of GB(A) games to work.

 

[London Geezer]

YEAH, still, moving parts on my handheld sound a bit wird.... kinda fragile... maybe it's just me...

i mean they have both pro and cons IMO...

optical: cheap, loads of room, but the handheld would be a bit more fragile (if u know what i mean)

carts: price grows proportionally to capacity, more "resistant"...


i'm sure it's only a psychological prejudice that devices with optical media are more fragile than others without.... u know...

oh dear... where's my doctor's number, need those red pills again...

 

[Tagrineth]

Optical media in a handheld really is TOO fragile.

Keep in mind that if the system shakes while the disc is being read, there can be loading problems, and the disc could wobble and strike the drive tray, adding scratches. PSP is going to need one HELL of a stable drive array, probably along the lines of a giant clamp that goes over the top of the UMD to keep it stable and a very strong laser assembly too.

Plus consider how poor Sony's optical readers are, always have been, and probably always will be. Almost all SCPH 100x PS1's have failed, along with most 333x's. Even my friend's 7501 has an extremely dodgy laser.

Most early PS2's also have very crappy drives. There's the infamous "Disc Read Error" (search for PS2 DVD lasers on eBay. It's scary.) which plagues the first couple models of PS2's.


Anyway, on-topic.

Matrix ROM, if it were used today... 256MB matrix ROM's would cost about the same as 16MB mask ROM's today, and the matrix tech can scale up to IIRC over 1GB. That and, the GBA is actually capable of addressing that much ROM. =) They're more or less inter-compatible, except that matrix ROM is extremely dense. The system just needs to have a large enough address range (Super NES, for example, wouldn't get any use out of matrix ROM technology, simply because it can't address more than ~8MB).

 

[Phil]

Tagrineth & london-boy:

Optical media in a handheld really is TOO fragile.

Keep in mind that if the system shakes while the disc is being read, there can be loading problems, and the disc could wobble and strike the drive tray, adding scratches. PSP is going to need one HELL of a stable drive array, probably along the lines of a giant clamp that goes over the top of the UMD to keep it stable and a very strong laser assembly too.

Plus consider how poor Sony's optical readers are, always have been, and probably always will be. Almost all SCPH 100x PS1's have failed, along with most 333x's. Even my friend's 7501 has an extremely dodgy laser.

Most early PS2's also have very crappy drives. There's the infamous "Disc Read Error" (search for PS2 DVD lasers on eBay. It's scary.) which plagues the first couple models of PS2's.

Yeah right. My portable minidisc is soooo fragile, I can hardly use it. [/sarcasm] Honestly though, it's a given fact that disc based mediums will be more fragile than ROM cartridges - is it an issue though? If it really was, I doubt Sony would even think about it, not to mention that they've already confirmed UMD - so it can't be THAT fragile, no matter what you may think or what it sounds like to london-boy.

Matrix ROM, if it were used today... 256MB matrix ROM's would cost about the same as 16MB mask ROM's today, and the matrix tech can scale up to IIRC over 1GB. That and, the GBA is actually capable of addressing that much ROM. =) They're more or less inter-compatible, except that matrix ROM is extremely dense. The system just needs to have a large enough address range (Super NES, for example, wouldn't get any use out of matrix ROM technology, simply because it can't address more than ~8MB).

Well, that doesn't say much, to me anyways. If we assume Nintendo stays with cartridges, in order to stay competitve we're looking at 1GB matrix ROM cartridges in late 2004/early 2005. How do the prices compete?

 

[OICAspork]

Well BuggyLoop posted this over at Rage3D...

It compares the specs of the PSP to the Gamecube and suggests that shrinking it would be a viable option for Nintendo...

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=86e7527f92541fe43d7cb5fd3827e72f&threadid=33701548

I thought it was an interesting read... and based on process shrinks... (Flipper and Gekko are 18 micron), it seems possible, maybe.

 

[OICAspork]

london-boy:


Yeah right. My portable minidisc is soooo fragile, I can hardly use it. [/sarcasm] Honestly though, it's a given fact that disc based mediums will be more fragile than ROM cartridges - is it an issue though? If it really was, I doubt Sony would even think about it, not to mention that they've already confirmed UMD - so it can't be THAT fragile, no matter what you may think or what it sounds like to london-boy.

I think you have a point there... Optical drives will always be a bit more fragile than ROMs... but look at the target market for the PSP. This thing is probably going to cost at least $200... that means that it won't be a 'toy' in the same sense as a gameboy, where parents buy them for their 8 year-olds. That way they wouldn't have to worry about kids throwing the system down on the floor and possibly stepping on it or its games. The target audience of the PSP is probably going to be older, more responsible people that would take better care of the unit and games, and thus not have to worry about the lesser sturdiness of the optical drive.

 

[Fox5]

THats not true at all . gb was inferior to the lynx , game gear and def the nomad. gba was inferior to the nego hand held and wonder swan. It still continues to sell like mad.

Eh? I'm pretty sure it was gameboy color that was inferior to the neo geo hand held and the wonder swan, considering both of those platforms were basically dead by the time GBA came out. Also, neo geo pocket color's graphics are a far cry from snes or genesis, but wonderswan might stack up a little better. However, unless you count the Gamepark 32, I believe the GBA is still the most powerful handheld gaming system.(and I think it outperforms the GP32 in 2d usually)

BTW, a site I found compares the sprite handling abilities of the NGPC to the sega genesis, but it can only display 146 colors out of 4096, which I think is less then the gba. That, and the sonic and fighting games I played it on it looked a lot like game gear games.
The wonderswan(color) isn't a beast either, its res is 224x144, 241 out of 4096 colors, 512 k ram...
I believe the wonderswan has more memory than the gba, but a lower res, lower simultaneous colors(way lower if you count bitmap mode), I'm also fairly certain the gba has the fastest cpu out of the 3 systems.
(Nintendo's site lists the GBA as having 394 KB in total of ram, a res of 240x160, 511 colors in character mode and 32,768 in bitmap mode)

 

[MfA]

Memory produced by photolitography is a couple of orders of magnitude more expensive per bit than optical media (especially since the available foundries are optimized for conservative/pricey fault densities). Matrix's 3D tech can only remove about 1 order of magnitude. PROMs with sizes of 100s of megabytes would in the short term still take a significant chunk out of the margin for games.

Only memories which can be constructed through alternative litography methods such as inkjet/injection-molding/hot-embossing/etc offer any chance of producing solid state memories which can compete with part mechanical media.

Something like this. It is a pity this company came on the market after the dotcom boom, injection molding is dirt cheap ... if this works it would truely be revolutionary.

 

[Tagrineth]

Yeah right. My portable minidisc is soooo fragile, I can hardly use it. [/sarcasm] Honestly though, it's a given fact that disc based mediums will be more fragile than ROM cartridges - is it an issue though? If it really was, I doubt Sony would even think about it, not to mention that they've already confirmed UMD - so it can't be THAT fragile, no matter what you may think or what it sounds like to london-boy.

Minidiscs are in caddies.

Add to that the fact that you don't hold the MD player in your hands, but keep it probably in a pocket or something along those lines.

And if you get frustrated by your music, you aren't going to shake your MD player... or throw it onto the floor in frustration (I did just that two nights ago playing Advance Wars 2 for GBA... unit is still in perfect condition).

Well, that doesn't say much, to me anyways. If we assume Nintendo stays with cartridges, in order to stay competitve we're looking at 1GB matrix ROM cartridges in late 2004/early 2005. How do the prices compete?

I'm sure they can compete with 512MB matrix ROM's... that's almost the size of a CD, and most CD-based games don't fill their media.

And I doubt 512MB matrix ROM will be too expensive in early 2005, considering that 256MB matrix ROM today would be no more expensive than 16MB mask ROM.

 

[MfA]

Unless you are factoring in costs related to inventory I would severely doubt that. Hell their ISSCC paper only claims about an about 3 times area advantage over flash ...

 

[marconelly!]

Minidiscs are in caddies.

And so are UMDs.

 

[Phil]

Minidiscs are in caddies.

And the UMD's that will be used for PSP will not? Honestly, I don't know - but do you? Even if they aren't - same applies to any Sony Discman with the newest Shock technology. BTW; even a MD has a 'rotating' disc inside the caddie.

EDIT: Thank you Marc for clearing that up

And if you get frustrated by your music, you aren't going to shake your MD player... or throw it onto the floor in frustration (I did just that two nights ago playing Advance Wars 2 for GBA... unit is still in perfect condition).

Okay, given that we test the gaming devices while treating them as a baseball and do a G-shock test on it, I'm sure the GameBoy player will hold an edge. That's not what my post above was all about though: point is, technology wise, if Nintendo goes with the cartridges, they will hold a similar position among developers as they did during the PSX vs N64 days. The argument of using the handheld as a baseball doesn't count, as each are targeting a slightly different audiance. That however doesn't mean that they won't be in direct competition to one another.

BTW: did you bring this up too, as Sony announced the PSX back in 1994?

I'm sure they can compete with 512MB matrix ROM's... that's almost the size of a CD, and most CD-based games don't fill their media.

And I doubt 512MB matrix ROM will be too expensive in early 2005, considering that 256MB matrix ROM today would be no more expensive than 16MB mask ROM.

If Nintendo brings out a PSX class device, yeah sure, 512 MB will be heaps. Figuring the specs of PSP though and it looks like Sony is aiming more for a PS2 class machine which will do well with a 1.8 GB medium inside. Not arguing of course that 512MB wouldn't be enough for developers - given the choice of a developer though and having to choose on which hardware to develop for, I think the cheaper and more versatile format would certainly receive some plus points (not to mention that it's from SONY, so Nintendo might not have the mindshare edge as they would against any other competitor).

 

[archie4oz]

Add to that the fact that you don't hold the MD player in your hands, but keep it probably in a pocket or something along those lines.

Some people do... Or even worse they go jogging or rollerblading with it flopping around in their pockets. I've even played hockey with an old one in my pocket playing...

And if you get frustrated by your music, you aren't going to shake your MD player... or throw it onto the floor in frustration (I did just that two nights ago playing Advance Wars 2 for GBA... unit is still in perfect condition).

No but you may take it skiing and take quite a few spills on it... I have, many, many times... Still works fine...

Granted something along the lines of the PSP is in general going to be more vulnurable to malfunctions (much like the SP is vs. a normal AGB), but I think you underestimage the durablilty of some optical media (and the devices that play them). Keep in mind most MD players aren't engineered to be man handled by kids like the AGB is... There's always the possibility that Sony will build the PSP more rugged than the typical MD recorder...

 

[Tagrineth]

Phil, do you really think a PS2-class "HANDHELD" can be successful? Using the term handheld loosely, of course... it'll probably be more along the lines of Virtual Boy "Portable".

added for clarification: Its battery life can't possibly be reasonable unless it uses a pretty hefty battery (at least laptop-class), and those aren't small either.

GBA otoh draws 0.6 Watts and gets ~15 hours of life from two AA's (or 18 hours from a lightweight Li-Ion battery)...


as a general aside, I had my wisdom teeth removed the other day so I'm feeling really miserable. please excuse my meager post here.

 

[Fox5]

Hey, I've been thinking it was like the Virtual Boy too, but I never actually said so since in functionality it is different.(it does more than play games, you don't stick your head in it, and it can hook up to a home theater system) I usually(almost always) said it would be like psone, since that was also 'portable' but hook up to a tv. Oh yeah, I also believe it was rather successful, and perhaps sony is making this PSP in place of a smaller sized PS2 in hopes of seeing such sales.

 

[jvd]

Hey, I've been thinking it was like the Virtual Boy too, but I never actually said so since in functionality it is different.(it does more than play games, you don't stick your head in it, and it can hook up to a home theater system) I usually(almost always) said it would be like psone, since that was also 'portable' but hook up to a tv. Oh yeah, I also believe it was rather successful, and perhaps sony is making this PSP in place of a smaller sized PS2 in hopes of seeing such sales.

PSP = CDX

 

[Panajev2001a]

Phil, do you really think a PS2-class "HANDHELD" can be successful?

Yes, and the PSP specs are next-generation kind of specs, main RAM aside this is quite ahead of the Dreamcast, for example, etc...

 

[Phil]

Phil, do you really think a PS2-class "HANDHELD" can be successful? Using the term handheld loosely, of course... it'll probably be more along the lines of Virtual Boy "Portable".

added for clarification: Its battery life can't possibly be reasonable unless it uses a pretty hefty battery (at least laptop-class), and those aren't small either.

GBA otoh draws 0.6 Watts and gets ~15 hours of life from two AA's (or 18 hours from a lightweight Li-Ion battery)...


as a general aside, I had my wisdom teeth removed the other day so I'm feeling really miserable. please excuse my meager post here.

You know tag, I don't know. Too little is known about PSP yet, as its still at least 2 years down the road and many things might change. Also, Nintendo has a pretty open field at the moment. The question is, by successful, do you mean successful as in a worthy competitor to GBA or even grap the number 1 spot in that market? Dunno. Depends on many other factors and with my last few post efforts, I was mainly tackling the hardware and technlogy bit in which I think it will be VERY challenging for Nintendo to stay competitive, especially if they want to avoid a N64/PSX scenario from the developers point of view. They've got mindshare though and a well established userbase which will make a big difference in the outcome, so considering that, it's not quite the PSX/N64 scenario where the game library started from scratch again. Since I have a fair idea in which direction Sony is taking their handheld, I'm wondering in which direction Nintendo will take there's. I do believe however that Nintendo will have to jump over their shadow if they want to compete in the long run...

Personally, I am quite anticipating the PSP, but have a few doubts if they can deliever the 'ultimate handheld' I myself envision. Sure it's the 'ultimate handheld' on paper already - the thing I'm wondering though is, how can they pack all those nice feature and make it something that looks stylish, yet at the same time is confortable to play - but not bulky and still kind of expensive/business like looking. :? A bit of a contradiction here, I know...

BTW; hope you feel better soon.

 

[cthellis42]

You know tag, I don't know. Too little is known about PSP yet, as its still at least 2 years down the road and many things might change.

Worldwide launch: Q4 2004

Still, a lot can happen in one year and two months, too.

 

[Phil]

Worldwide launch: Q4 2004
Still, a lot can happen in one year and two months, too.

Damn, it's already 2003. For some stupid reason, I though we had 2002. :?