Xbox Series... M?

[fehu]

Ok, another point of view.
They technically can make it, even if it must be a custom apu.
Maybe they can make it at a reasonable for the BOM, even if expensive for my pockets, price point.
But.
They can't sell well neither X or S.
S was a big gamble with the prize of extending the install base, and still doesn't sell well.
Now you are asking of proposing to an almost unexisting user base a product that will go against Switch, Switch 2, Steam deck, Asus rog and the dozens of similar products that in a year will run laps around it with one CU tied behind their back.
MS has a lot of money, and wastes a lot of it, but not to this point.

 

[Jay]

S was a big gamble with the prize of extending the install base, and still doesn't sell well.

Just this in particular.
From all accounts it's sold well from releaae to now.
That may be due to XSX shortages but that's really besides the point and we won't know how well it will do when that's resolved.
But even then I expect it to continue to do well enough, especially when we are truly out of cross gen.

 

[fehu]

It's doing well compared to X.
My point is that even if MS produce it, they can't sell it, and in the hypothetical launch timeframe there will be lots of better handleds capable of running gamepass too.
It just makes little sense as a whole.
Even sony doesn't risk crossing the path with nintendo anymore on mobile.

 

[eastmen]

with how hot xbox series s is, i though it was hundreds of watts. but turns out it was just 80 watts, and microsoft deliberately make it hot enough like that for the super silent cooling system.
seriously, the exhaust on XSS when i touched it is hotter than my RTX 3070 PC. But my PC blast fans LOUD.

with only around 80 watts, these talks of XSM sounds more reasonable than i originally thought.

I am unsure of your pc but the series s gets as hot as a typical laptop does when its playing a game. Remember the series s has a single fan and the heatsink is very close to the fan. Most cases have a large area of space between the cpu heatsink and the exhaust fans and will typically have multiple exhuast fans. Most 3070s have multiple fans on them and a lot don't exhaust heat directly out of the case but push it through the case.

More to the point is the hardware

8core zen 2 @ 3.6ghz
RDNA 2 20cu @ 1.56ghz
85w

Z1 extreme found in the ally

8core zen 4 @ 3.3ghz
RDNA 3 12cu @ 2.7ghz
30w

I'd wager we are already at the cusp of it. What is really missing is bandwidth on the ram. I think the 8 core zen 4 even at only 3.3ghz would out perform the zen 2 any day of the week , however its only 200mhz off so I don't doubt that it can be locked in at 3.6ghz . The zen 2 in the series is actually 3.4/3.6 depending on 8 core usage or 16 thread usage.

RDNA 3.5 could bring efficiency improvements allowing more cus or higher clock rates. I am not sure what would be best power wise. 20cu @ 1.5ghz or 12 @ 3ghz. Depending on a hypothetical launch year we can even see zen 5 and rdna 4 for such a system to eek out more efficency.

Ok, another point of view.
They technically can make it, even if it must be a custom apu.
Maybe they can make it at a reasonable for the BOM, even if expensive for my pockets, price point.
But.
They can't sell well neither X or S.
S was a big gamble with the prize of extending the install base, and still doesn't sell well.
Now you are asking of proposing to an almost unexisting user base a product that will go against Switch, Switch 2, Steam deck, Asus rog and the dozens of similar products that in a year will run laps around it with one CU tied behind their back.
MS has a lot of money, and wastes a lot of it, but not to this point.

Look at it this way. This would be a portable system that could play all the current gen games day and date of its hme console siblings. So startfield , halo , avowed and what have you. You could also likely use it in a dock on your tv since it would be as powerful as the home series s.

In terms of usage all games should just work and all game run on series s as is. Unlike an ally or steam deck there is no messing with settings or waiting for your game to be compatible. Unlike a switch you are getting cutting edge graphics. Native game pass support for console and so on and so forth.


You are right that the cost would be the main factor. But I'd think they could come in around steam deck price of $400-$500. Remember this would have less ram than the deck or ally and MS can leverage the new APU by putting out a super slim series s also. They could use any dies that might need more power to hit the desired speeds in the larger home console box vs the mobile form factor.

 

[orangpelupa]

I wonder if they can target 720p for xsm, via system-level resolution downgrade?

Basically like what they did with older game running at higher resolution, but this time it lowers current Gen games to 720p.

It'll reduce the memory bandwidth req, and 720p for such a small screen already looking good

 

[eastmen]

I wonder if they can target 720p for xsm, via system-level resolution downgrade?

Basically like what they did with older game running at higher resolution, but this time it lowers current Gen games to 720p.

It'll reduce the memory bandwidth req, and 720p for such a small screen already looking good

using the Ally vs the Deck really makes me want a higher res screen. So I'd hope they would at least have a 1080p screen. Although I guess 800/900p to 1080/1200p would be good

 

[orangpelupa]

using the Ally vs the Deck really makes me want a higher res screen. So I'd hope they would at least have a 1080p screen. Although I guess 800/900p to 1080/1200p would be good

Curious, what the higher resolution screen provides? I mean, at normal handheld viewing distance.

I imagine it surely would make tiny texts readable. But such tiny texts would not be comfortable to read on normal handheld viewing distance

 

[Jay]

It's doing well compared to X.
My point is that even if MS produce it, they can't sell it, and in the hypothetical launch timeframe there will be lots of better handleds capable of running gamepass too.
It just makes little sense as a whole.
Even sony doesn't risk crossing the path with nintendo anymore on mobile.

I was specifically talking about your comment about XSS not selling well.

I personally don't think they could make a XSS handheld with same performance and at a price point that would be worth while, the limited sales due to price would make it too niche for them.

 

[eastmen]

Curious, what the higher resolution screen provides? I mean, at normal handheld viewing distance.

I imagine it surely would make tiny texts readable. But such tiny texts would not be comfortable to read on normal handheld viewing distance

Text is sharper for me at least. I'd also want a bigger screen than the deck too. Remember steam deck is 1280x800 so its higher res than 720p and a 7 inch screen with large black borders around it. I'd wager they could put close to a 8 inch screen in the same space

 

[orangpelupa]

Text is sharper for me at least. I'd also want a bigger screen than the deck too. Remember steam deck is 1280x800 so its higher res than 720p and a 7 inch screen with large black borders around it. I'd wager they could put close to a 8 inch screen in the same space

1280x800 is indeed higher res than 720p but that's outside the point of the discussion, I think. Because if we keep the screen width, 800p just means taller screen.

No change in ppi.

Yeah text would be undoubtedly sharper in 1080p screen compared to 720p screen at the same size. But my argument was that, even with better readability (sharper texts), the physical size of the texts would need to be pretty small to make the difference in sharpness matter.

Texts that small, would be uncomfortable, even with it's being readable (due to higher resolution).

As for steam deck screen upgrade, there's deckhd.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that for Xbox series m, a 720p screen would still result in good enough ppi, and it requires less HW performance. 800p screen would also be nice, maybe for something like bottom 80px for an always-on hotkey or status bar or something.

 

[eastmen]

higher res than 720p but that's outside the point of the discussion, I think. Because if we keep the screen width, 800p just means taller screen.

No change in ppi.

Yeah text would be undoubtedly sharper in 1080p screen compared to 720p screen at the same size. But my argument was that, even with better readability (sharper texts), the physical size of the texts would need to be pretty small to make the difference in sharpness matter.

I am old and I find my self increasing the size of the text on the screen with games that have that option. So certianly having a higher resolution allows it to stay sharp.

Also with variable refresh rates a higher res screen shouldn't be a problem. Throw on a 1080p 9 inch screen with a 90hz mode and vrr.

 

[orangpelupa]

a large enough text wont get much better on 720p vs 1080p on such small screen. as 720p already got high enough density.
and VRR also wont help making 1080p resolution lighter to render.

 

[eastmen]

a large enough text wont get much better on 720p vs 1080p on such small screen. as 720p already got high enough density.
and VRR also wont help making 1080p resolution lighter to render.

I'll disagree with you since I've used higher res small panels vs the steam deck. Text is much easier to read on the higher res

 

[orangpelupa]

Curios with the text size, any photos?

 

[Seanspeed]

Fun fact:

Using the 720p 6.2" Nintendo Switch from a distance of 11 inches(which is what I measured to be my comfortable distance using it in handheld) offers basically the same pixels-per-degree as using a 27" 1440p monitor from two feet away.

So just in terms of screen density and all that, if you're ok with a 1440p monitor, you should be fine with 720p on a handheld with a ~6" screen.

If we're talking about a handheld with an 8" screen, then using 720p offers about the same PPD as a 1080p monitor from two feet away. In this case, going up to 1080p for the handheld screen offers a slightly higher PPD than the 1440p monitor referenced above. How valuable that is for a mobile experience is very debatable for me. I'd rather have the 720p screen that gets me better performance, better battery life and a lower device cost(or perhaps a better quality screen at the same cost), personally. So long as you're rendering at native resolution with decent AA, I think it's plenty good enough.

EDIT: Should also be noted that text size(and UI elements in general) tends to scale properly nowadays as you change resolution in games. Obviously this is still a problem on older games, or if you somehow wanted to use your handheld for non-media purposes, but even for older games where UI doesn't scale properly, just turning down the rendering resolution is an option. It wont look as good, but it's still a solution that makes it usable.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Would a shrunken version of the Series S be the right move if MS want to release a handheld?

The XB1 has a solid library (including X360 & OG) and 12CU's + a 1.7GHz CPU won't be difficult to power or cool in a portable form factor.

Integrate it into the Series S/X devkit correctly, and if a dev wants to get their game running on the Series M, it'll run at twice the resolution and framerate on the Series S just by virtue of clockspeeds and GPU width. And probably with some fancy RT gubbins on the Series X ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[cheapchips]

Would a shrunken version of the Series S be the right move if MS want to release a handheld?

The XB1 has a solid library (including X360 & OG) and 12CU's + a 1.7GHz CPU won't be difficult to power or cool in a portable form factor.

Integrate it into the Series S/X devkit correctly, and if a dev wants to get their game running on the Series M, it'll run at twice the resolution and framerate on the Series S just by virtue of clockspeeds and GPU width. And probably with some fancy RT gubbins on the Series X ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No?

Devs have enough trouble supporting the S well. This version of the M wouldn't receive new games to speak of.

It'll only happen if a shrink of the S is low power enough to enable it. You're then not having to incur chip development cost, everyone's library just works and the marketing is straightforward.

 

[fehu]

This version of the M wouldn't receive new games to speak of.

The recipe for success

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

No?

Devs have enough trouble supporting the S well. This version of the M wouldn't receive new games to speak of.

It'll only happen if a shrink of the S is low power enough to enable it. You're then not having to incur chip development cost, everyone's library just works and the marketing is straightforward.

Yeah, fair point. It may depend on how powerful the Switch 2 is. If ~XB1 levels, then being able to match the Switch 2's library in a portable form factor might be worthwhile? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I really do wish they'd have handled their two tier approach differently: a discless Series S with 44CU's on an SoC with 12GB of memory (ala XB1X) RDNA2+Zen 3+GDDR6+SSD and a Series X with a disc drive and a discrete GPU+CPU that would knock the spots off of the PS5.

I think that would've made for an interesting fight: a Series S that's basically as powerful as the PS5, but always 4GB worth of GDDR6 cheaper and a really high end Series X that could trade blows with high end PC's.

But anyway, sorry, that's besides the point.

What are the options for memory for a portable Series S? Could LPDDR5 do the trick or do we have to wait for LPDDR6 for compatibility's sake? I don't really know enough about memory and signalling rates etc to say. In terms of raw bandwidth, LPDDR5 on the right bus can do the trick, but is raw bandwidth the only aspect that needs addressing?

 

[eastmen]

Curios with the text size, any photos?

I'd have to take pictures. Playing diablo 4 for example I have to raise the text size on the steam deck and ally. On the ally the text is more readable than the steam deck. but it would have to wait for me to see my friend again who has an ally. I only have the deck

Fun fact:

Using the 720p 6.2" Nintendo Switch from a distance of 11 inches(which is what I measured to be my comfortable distance using it in handheld) offers basically the same pixels-per-degree as using a 27" 1440p monitor from two feet away.

So just in terms of screen density and all that, if you're ok with a 1440p monitor, you should be fine with 720p on a handheld with a ~6" screen.

If we're talking about a handheld with an 8" screen, then using 720p offers about the same PPD as a 1080p monitor from two feet away. In this case, going up to 1080p for the handheld screen offers a slightly higher PPD than the 1440p monitor referenced above. How valuable that is for a mobile experience is very debatable for me. I'd rather have the 720p screen that gets me better performance, better battery life and a lower device cost(or perhaps a better quality screen at the same cost), personally. So long as you're rendering at native resolution with decent AA, I think it's plenty good enough.

EDIT: Should also be noted that text size(and UI elements in general) tends to scale properly nowadays as you change resolution in games. Obviously this is still a problem on older games, or if you somehow wanted to use your handheld for non-media purposes, but even for older games where UI doesn't scale properly, just turning down the rendering resolution is an option. It wont look as good, but it's still a solution that makes it usable.

The distance from me and my monitors is not much more than the distance i typically play with my steam deck. I'd wager it may even be the same distance.

Would a shrunken version of the Series S be the right move if MS want to release a handheld?

The XB1 has a solid library (including X360 & OG) and 12CU's + a 1.7GHz CPU won't be difficult to power or cool in a portable form factor.

Integrate it into the Series S/X devkit correctly, and if a dev wants to get their game running on the Series M, it'll run at twice the resolution and framerate on the Series S just by virtue of clockspeeds and GPU width. And probably with some fancy RT gubbins on the Series X ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The Xbox one isn't getting new games anymore. They stopped supporting the system.

We already have portable handhelds on the cusp of series s power. I don't know why you'd go all the way back to the xbox one in terms of performance.

The series s can also run the same games as the one.