XGI to Introduce New High End Graphics

Discussion in 'Beyond3D News' started by Dave Baumann, Aug 30, 2003.

  1. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    I like the cat in your signature!!! 8)
     
  2. Rodéric

    Rodéric a.k.a. Ingenu
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  3. Anonymous

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    Um not to be overly pecemistic but....
    This little blurb stood out to me like a sore thumb. Let me tell you what i read into this. "We need to test this on our architecture, because we only *Partially* implimented DX9 in *Hardware* just like we messed around with DX8 on the origional Xabre". "AFter looking at the Benchmarks we are more than a little Nervous now that we are even in the same league".

    Im sorry.. But Ill believe That they have actually gone all the way with a real "Top end card". When i see it. Honerstly I hope that I am shocked and Amazed by what they produce. *But* my gut tells me what the reality will be is far different.

    To compete with ATi and Nvidia in the High end, Establish a brand name for themselves etc.. their part will have to...

    -Have around 3.5Gpix *Raw* fill rate
    -Have *fully* hardware accelerated DX9 PS/VS 2.0
    -Have Comparable FSAA performance and Quality
    -Have Comparable AF performance and Quality
    -Not achieve *Any* of the above with some lame ass IQ killing Tex-Turbo setting.

    Now lets all raise our hands if we believe they have really Spent the cash needed, and have the engineers To Pull off a product like that.
     
  4. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Why? nVidia ain't got 'em yet... :p
     
  5. parhelia

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    You may be correct (which I highly doubt), but there's a reason to this.

    ALL HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS including ATI and NV test popular products and benchmarks on their hardware.
    Why? To ensure compatibility for example. Why do you think ATI and NV joined the Futuremark or even Aquamark program for example ?
    Better yet, why do you think most game developpers test their games on both ATI and NV cards? Not for favoritism, but to ensure there isn't any nasty bug to spoil the fun.
    As there are no XGI boards out there, XGI has to perform tests internally. They have no choice. If they don't do this and a bug is found later, all the hardware reviewers will jump on their throats saying that their drivers suck and all that crap.
    Also, for your information, most game developpers send copies of their games to both ATI and NV for... internal tests. After all, if no hardware manufacturer performed such tests, why does ATI need to even have a "Benchmarking manager" (Greg Ellis)?
     
  6. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Really! Now that is interesting...

    I never knew ATi had a benchmarking manager, my thanks to you again Parhelia. :)
     
  7. Entropy

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    You can add this, quoted from Digitimes. ([url]http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2003/09/01&pages=A8&seq=58)[/url]
    Which also seems to indicate that the new chips may not be quite as new as one could hope.

    I think the entire B3D community would fall off our collective chairs if XGI really came up with a high-end part. I know I would. I hold it to be far more likely that they will come up with a chip that has pretty good performance and relatively decent price, and which would in effect compete in the 9600Pro/5600Ultra tier of the market. On the other hand, I don't hold it as impossible that they could be reasonably competitive there. The current offerings aren't all that impressive, and by appearances aren't likely to take a major step forward in either performance or feature set anytime soon post the Comdex bumps.

    Entropy
     
  8. parhelia

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    All I know is that Digitimes doesn't seem to well informed as they still wrote "may not adopt the Xabre name for the new product" when XGI already officially confirmed a few times the new GPU will have a new name and the Xabre brand name belongs to SiS, not XGI.
     
  9. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    Pardon me but their drivers weren´t exactly up to snuff either, even when they had a recent product on shelves in the past. And no it´s not any weird conspiracy from the reviewers behalf either.

    Before the game was actually released:

    http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1647&p=3

    Albeit german here´s a compatibility list from a recent review:

    http://www.mitrax.de/display-review.php?file=komp.htm

    Notice how many blank boxes the NV25 and R300 have? Must be some weird coincidence.
     
  10. parhelia

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    You misunderstand me.
    I was not suggesting a conspiracy from reviewers or whatever. It's a fact : no reviewer (nor customer either) would appreciate horrible bugs or compatibility issues with games.

    LOL. I perfectly agree, you make my point.
    See what happens when hardware developpers are not in contact with game developpers? You get this sort of problems.

    As written in the same article :
    "In a matter of weeks Epic will be releasing the first public demo of Unreal Tournament 2003 (formerly UT II), which will stress your graphics cards unlike any first person shooter (FPS) you've ever played."

    SiS didn't manage to get hold of the demo to test it (unlike ATI or NV who did), hence the bug and the fact that SiS could only correct it when it was too late. That's why when people say "no, don't let XGI get in touch with this developper or this demo bla bla bla", it makes me smile as I'm sure they will be the first to criticize if a problem arises later.

    By the way, I also distinctively remember that the UT 2003 demo had a bug with ATI's 8500 when you enabled Smoothvision : walls and floors disappearing and all. I know, I experienced the issue first hand and seeing from various forums, many did too.

    Let's quote HardOCP now :
    I guess ATI's "drivers weren´t exactly up to snuff" either... :roll:

    Now NV :

    And UT 2003 was out before the GF FX! Not to mention the NV30 bugs...

    Anyway, back to the point, this is precisely the reason why XGI wants to get in contact with a maximum of game developpers so that such a problem doesn't happen again.
    This is precisely one thing XGI learnt from their past errors, hence the reason why they want to perform tests internally first.

    Link doesn't work...
     
  11. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    UT2k3 still performs rather unexcusibly bad to the day on those for whatever unknown reason.

    However could you tell me how on earth then PowerVR managed to get a demo and SiS didn't? Let me remind that KYRO was outdated even then and it lacked a T&L unit, which the Xabre didn't. The remark concerning response time must have just popped out of the blue then.

    It worked with a former driver set though; in the paradigm it the U2 demo worked on none for Xabre.

    They have compatibility problems and quite a few unexcusable ones. They have common IMRs, there's nothing really exotic about their cards to have any excuses for those. Developers aren't going to help you write better drivers, unless you want them to reproduce your bugs.


    Here's the review:

    http://www.mitrax.de/review.php?id=11

    If am to choose between all of those (dated K2 excluded) give me one good reason why I would not chose either the 9500PRO or Ti4200 instead of the Xabre600? A user doesn't care as much where the problems originate from.

    I honestly wish that XGI will take this market seriously from now on as they claim, but instead of blaming the fault for mischiefs up to now on 3rd parties and factors, they better sit their butts down and do some hard work or even hire extra personell if they lack in manpower after all.
     
  12. parhelia

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    Lack of hardware vertex shaders.

    PowerVR is more popular than SiS and most developpers don't even know SiS have graphics cards... etc.

    Are you sure? It worked with driver 3.03...

    Except supporting PS 1.3 but no hardware vertex shaders...
     
  13. Entropy

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    XGI recently separated from SIS, just aquired Trident, and they intend to progressively merge staff and designs. From nothing else, you wouldn't expect them to really get into gear until 2005 at the earliest. Realistically, XGI will spend the next couple of years trying to gain a foothold in the far eastern market, and then try to expand from there as they grow in experience and capabilities. They may well fail. On the other hand, anything more would be a positive surprise. Comdex should give us some first impression of chip capabilities, but only time will tell us about their execution in full.

    Obviously they will have more problems in games than either ATI or nVidia. That's a given. The question is rather whether it will be in just about every game, or in obscure game X unless you disable feature Y.
    Any new player will face these problems.

    XGI is new as a standalone entity. I think it would be wise to wait and see what direction they will take. But from a graphics enthusiast point of view, I think it makes sense to applaud their persistance and determination to fight in this market. After all, addition of another supplier can only benefit consumers and make for a more dynamic and competitive marketplace.

    No need to piss on them before we've even seen what they bring to the table.

    Entropy
     
  14. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    My feelings exactly.

    Besides, they're very polite about returning e-mails and such which is a BIG plus in my book. For some reason their attitude seems very positive and open to me, which just makes me more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt until they come out with a card. :)
     
  15. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    UT2k3 is a pure dx7 T&L game. VS get used to do T&L functions. See below.

    SiS appeared with their first graphics sollution in 1998 AFAIK; not that long after PowerVR made it´s appearance.

    Back when the article was written?

    Since I´m too bored to look it up, they don´t have any fixed function T&L unit on board?

    Depends how you define "new". I don´t recall SiS releasing cards in absolute continuance, but the "breaks" in between were rather small.

    Agreed. As I said all efforts deserve a fair chance. I just can´t stand reading excuses for past mistakes or shifting the responsibilities to any third party, but the hard- and software designers themselves for past products.
     
  16. keegdsb

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    Well technically it's "new" I guess because it's SiS/Trident and not just SiS.
     
  17. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
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    Where Trident isn´t exactly a newcomer either. We´re really splitting hair here with that one.

    If my memory serves me well SiS made it´s debut in 1998 with the SiS6326. Some folks might even remember the Elitegroup 3DVision :wink:

    SiS300=1999
    SiS305=2000
    SiS315=2001
    Xabre=2002

    Trident is producing graphics products (mostly concentrated on the integrated market) since 1987.
     
  18. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
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    More like 95~97 for PowerVR. (I can't remember the exact dates... too long ago for my poor brain)
     
  19. parhelia

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    Technically it's new as SiS management isn't involved now and like Mr Lin said in the interview, they don't have to follow constraints from SiS anymore. :lol:
     
  20. Anonymous

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    (Corrections welcome)

    PCX1=October 1996
    SiS6326=December 1997

    Give or take a year considering first releases.

    I'll change my user name tomorrow; the character changes should be interesting :wink:
     
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