Xbox Series... M?

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Frenetic Pony, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. Jay

    Jay
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    To get something comparable to a XSS in a hand held, with same cpu performance?
    If it doesn't have same cpu performance then that would cause trouble for the consoles.
    Could be zen2 and vega based. Whatever gives the best overall performance per watt.

    I'd rather a handheld that can play previous gen and back locally and stream current gen.
    Streaming to mobile devices is xbox plan anyway. This would allow for decent local play when can't stream.
    That was my outline couple posts back anyway.
     
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  2. ToTTenTranz

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    Considering Rembrandt-U reportedly has 12 CUs and at most it uses 128bit LPDDR5 / DDR5, it's definitely not powerful enough to match a Series S.

    Regardless, Microsoft wouldn't use an off-the-shelf PC APU from AMD. They'd need to use 128bit 14GT/s GDDR6 - 224GB/s - or something with eerily similar bandwidth to system RAM, which isn't going to happen anytime soon on PC APUs. My guess is that AMD will start putting GPU LLC on their APUs well before going above 128bit to the system RAM.
     
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  3. Silent_Buddha

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    If it's targeting say a 720p handheld resolution then it doesn't have to be as powerful as a series S. You can render natively at 720p when in handheld mode, then use some form of upscaling to hit 1080p when connected to a display. Less demanding games can just natively render at 1080p.

    So, hypothetically we'd have
    • Series M - up to 1080p
    • Series S - up to 1440p
    • Series X - up to 2160p
    Seems reasonable to me for a handheld. The only problem I see is WRT already released titles not already have a Series M "configuration" (whether it just be configuration settings, or actual changes to rendering). But if a developer was already on the ball with a scalable engine then they just need to release a configuration file with settings changes for Series M and they are done.

    Regards,
    SB
     
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  4. Johnny Awesome

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    Yeah. It's possible to get a handheld that is 50% of the S power with 50% of the pixels probably, but with the same CPU as the X|S in 2024 or so on 3nm. IMO that's the way to go, but with an 8" screen. :)
     
  5. Jay

    Jay
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    This is just talking about the gpu. (graphics)
    There's a reason why the XSS cpu is so close to XSX cpu.

    Put that in a mobile with everything else and watch the TDP etc shoot up. Even in console xbox said that the cpu was the biggest heat contributer so the cooling is based around that not the gpu.

    XSS I'm expecting the resolution to range from 900p - 1440p.
     
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  6. eastmen

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    I think CPU performance is the most important. Its a lot easier to scale rendering resolution than it is to scale back cpu usage. Remember the majority of Series S games are already dynamic res. So if the CPU performance is the same but the gpu is I dunno lets say 3tflops instead of 4 well it will just render towards the bottom of the dynamic rendering range instead of the top.

    Microsoft's plan is everything. Its simply that to offer every possible way to increase subscriber and usage rates

    Infinity cache would help . 64megs targeting 720p to 1080p should be enough considering the desktop cards are making due with 96 to 128

    Do you need a Series M configuration if everything is the same . Same cpu performance , same gpu generation , same ram amounts ? The difference would be lower gnu performance and slower ram. But of course in a game where the dynamic res of the Series s is 720p to 1440p well the portable device would render it at 720p more often than 1440p . of course on the console MS can just have developers patch titles from the get go if they want them to stay on game pass or be compatible. Easier to get someone to patch a 2020 or 2021 game that is still making money on gamepass than to get someone to go back to work on say an xbox 360 or xbox one title

    I think you guys are underestimating the smaller micron processes. Also MS doesn't have to stick to zen 2. If they can put a zen 3 or zen 4 and get better performance clock for clock and the code will run on it then perhaps that is the way to go.

    If this is a 2023 or 2024 device that could coincide with a mid gen refresh and perhaps both the the home consoles will get a zen 3 or 4 upgrade along with a new rdna upgrade.

    That could actually be the easiest way to make it happen. If Rdna 3 is more efficent and offers much better RT performance then it would be easier to catch the series s
     
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  7. Proelite

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    Yep. This makes the most sense as a handheld MS can release in the next year or two.

    The sell will be a Xcloud device that can play your BC games natively.

    They might also want to think about a lower SKU version that lacks the native play and is Xcloud only. But Xcloud having limited library right now it's a hard sell.

    Obviously, the performance should be higher than Xbox One because a lot of Xbox One games needs stable fps / max DRS window.

    I think the handheld definitely needs higher clocks, and DCC. I would even go as far as adding all the Scorpio enhancements.
     
  8. fehu

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    And they can call it Xbox Phone Controller Attachment, or Series PCA
     
  9. Proelite

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    You're right.

    I would stick with this as the only device.

    Octocore Jaguar Enhanced at 1.8+ghz OR eight core Zen with SMT off at 1.8+ghz OR quad core Zen with SMT. Whichever has the lowest TDP and maintains BC with Xbox One.
    32MB Esram / Infinity Cache / SLC.
    12 GCN4 or RDNA 1/2 CU, which ever has lowest TDP.
    Quad channel LPDDR4X or Octa channel LDDR5. 68+GB/s bandwidth.
    512GB of eMMC or slowest / cheapest / lowest TDP SSD.
    1080p touch screen
     
    #89 Proelite, Jul 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  10. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
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    I think the streaming only handheld market is already being served by phones & tablets. And 3rd party controller add-ons are also serving those. Microsoft needs to offer something unique in a portable form factor to make it worth their time. It doesn't need to be a handheld like the Switch or Steam Deck. It could be a tablet or laptop form factor. They could go modular too. The base unit would be like the Switch with dock, but no screen. Purchase a screen separately, which also includes the battery. Also have keyboard/controller attachment separate. There are some cool ideas they can do than just doing a Xbox-branded version of the Switch. Hopefully they can surprise us.

    Tommy McClain
     
    #90 AzBat, Jul 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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  11. ToTTenTranz

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    Completely agreed.
    The Surface Pro 7 Plus uses a Tiger Lake with 30W PL1 (sustained) and 60W peak, and the i5 version is even fanless.

    Microsoft probably doesn't need to wait for 2nm or later to make a Series M console as powerful as the Series S at 15W. If they use a larger form factor then the body itself can be used to enhance heat dissipation, and they can include a larger battery too.

    For example the Razer Edge Pro used a 17W Ivy Bridge, a 20W Geforce 640M LE and dual DDR3 SO-DIMMs.It was easily pushing 40W all around.
     
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  12. Mskx

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    Just looked it up and the Steam Deck is wider than the Series S... Of course the S is is bigger on the other axis but still.

    I am calling it right now: They are going to cram the Series S into a portable device within the next 2 years.
    I just hope we get full size controllers with proper handles and a nice phone-like bezel-free 1440p 120hz screen too. :p
     
    #92 Mskx, Jul 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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  13. Jay

    Jay
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    I'm willing to say not going to happen.

    Simply because of a couple reasons:
    They believe in streaming for mobile
    Rather let oem's build such devices I suspect

    What they could do is turn gamepass/xbox app into a launcher.
    Make it so can boot right into it, then drop to desktop if want to launch steam/epic store.
    Then make it easy to install onto steam deck type devices. No hardware R&D cost to them etc.

    Running games under Win 11 would even have a chance of performing better than proton.
    Mobile gamepass machine with very little work for them, no downsides if it doesn't take off either.
     
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  14. eastmen

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    I have a pro 6 and pro 7 and I can tell you its not great for gaming at all. Esp on the go gaming. I have used one on the plane before and its an okay experience.

    You can see here how poorly a pro 6 plays games


    The 7 isn't much better and while the 7pro might be better its still a long way off.

    Also the steam deck is already pushing the boundries of what a portable handheld should be. I don't see someone holding a 12.6 inch screen up for gaming and that is before controllers.

    [​IMG]

    The pro 7 and pro 7+ are
    292 mm × 201 mm × 8.5 mm (11.5 in x 7.9 in x 0.33 in)

    maybe go 2 size is more viable ?
    245 mm x 175 mm x 8.3 mm (9.65 in x 6.9 in x 0.33 in)

    Keep in mind the switch
    173 mm (6.8 in) Height: 102 mm (4.0 in) Depth: 14 mm (0.55 in)
    238 mm (9.4 in) Height: 102 mm (4.0 in) Depth: 14 mm joy cons attached

    Valve deck
    298mm x 117mm x 49mm

    So the pro sized mobile device would be really large compared to the other hand helds. So I guess you could get away with a more powerful soc . The i7 models have active cooling. I think a go 2 size would be a better goal

    https://ibb.co/6ycBnWW

    here is a switch Og , go2 an pro 7
     
    #94 eastmen, Jul 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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  15. Mskx

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    But the Xbox has for a while been all about giving choices.
    Play it on Xbox or PC.
    Get an Series X or a Series S if you are so inclined.

    Why not also give that choice for outside the home?
    For people who are less sensitive to latency and have good mobile internet they have streaming.
    And for people who with crap internet or who simply wants to play games on the go with less sacrifices and compromises they have the Series S portable.

    Also the Micro PCs are all too slow and too niche for Xbox to get much of anything out of them IMO.
     
  16. LiveGamer

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    The best way for MS to balance battery life and power for a Series S portable device would be to copy Nintendo's docked and undocked performance approach. When undocked lower the CPU clocks and disable half the GPU cores to conserve battery life. Allow just enough power for XB1 VM on the go (with improvements) and xcloud for nextgen games. When docked the tablet becomes your typical Series S console with full clocks.
     
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  17. Proelite

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    You probably can get there on the APU front on 3nm, but the ram situation might be tricky. Don't know how GDDR6 power scaling looks like.

    Probably will need to disable fps boost and heuchy.
    Quite a bit of complexity on the OS front to add.
     
  18. Proelite

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    So I did a bunch of research and have updated the specs for a hypothetical Xbox handheld releasing Q4 2022.

    Octocore Zen at 1.8+ghz. SMT disabled for XB1 BC.
    6 RDNA2+ WGP(7 total) at 1.3+ghz. 16 ROPs.
    32MB SLC (System level cache). Emulates Esram in BC mode.
    8GB of LPDDR5 4266mhz, 68GB/s. (2GB for OS)
    512GB SSD solution with lowest TDP.
    1080p touch screen. 8" screen. VRR.

    The key to this device is the dual use of this silicon.

    The same APU will be used in a Surface device with SMT on, 16GB of 6400 LPDDR5 (104GB/s), 1TB faster SSD, and vastly higher clocks.
     
    #98 Proelite, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  19. ToTTenTranz

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    They would probably use cheaper LPDDR4X for those speeds, trather than downclocking 5500MT/s LPDDR5. Though eventually we'll see LPDDR5 working at 8533MT/s, meaning the same bandwidth could be reached with a 64bit bus.
     
  20. Proelite

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    Of course. But LPDDR5 has lower TDP.
     
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