Windows 7 to ship without IE in the EU (+ HR, CH)

R

Richard

Mord's imaginary friend
Veteran
Full story up at CNET. Important points:

Unlike Windows XP's "N" editions, this won't be an optional SKU. All Windows 7 versions sold in the EU, Croatia and Switzerland will not have Internet Explorer. OEM, retail, doesn't matter.

MS will be offering an "IE Addon Pack" for OEMs and will make it available for free to all Windows 7 customers (though how one will get it exactly is not clear).

This is a reaction by MS to the complaint filed by Opera and backed up by Mozilla and Google to the European Comission citing unfair advantage through bundling IE in Windows. It's possible this action will not be one proposed by the EC.

If you want to discuss the ramifications of this (technical, marketshare, annoyances) go right ahead. If anyone wants to discuss politics, recommendations to non-EU companies with novel ways to do business around the world, etc. I suggest you hit the RPSC forum.
 
Wow, it's what I was hoping MS' response to that would be. But I wasn't expecting they would actually do it.

I don't think the EU was expecting them to do it either and was expecting to be able to get a cash payout from MS.

So I guess MS called their bluff. It'll be interesting to see the technical fallout from this. And how 3rd party browser vendors will get their products onto Windows 7.

I'd imagine actually pressing discs for distribution of their browser will incure some fairly significant costs, especially those that don't sell their browser.

Well, I hope Opera is happy with the outcome. I know FF wasn't wanting this to happen.

Regards,
SB
 
This freaking rocks!

Best of luck getting any web browsers on there. MS will likely allow IE to be installed through the Windows Update component.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Wow, it's what I was hoping MS' response to that would be. But I wasn't expecting they would actually do it.

I don't think the EU was expecting them to do it either and was expecting to be able to get a cash payout from MS.

So I guess MS called their bluff. It'll be interesting to see the technical fallout from this. And how 3rd party browser vendors will get their products onto Windows 7.

I'd imagine actually pressing discs for distribution of their browser will incure some fairly significant costs, especially those that don't sell their browser.

Well, I hope Opera is happy with the outcome. I know FF wasn't wanting this to happen.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

Well Opera is still Full Of Shit, as seen here :

http://www.techflash.com/Opera_exec_says_Microsoft_IE8_concession_wont_be_enough_47852502.html

I can only imagine what's going on in Steve Ballmer's head now knowing that they still have to rely on Opera Mobile on Windows Mobile (90% of the WM phones sold now have Opera as the default browser) for the moment because WM7 is so damn late.
 
That'll be weird in action. My thoughts went:

1. MS will just offer it on Windows Update.

2. Hang on, there won't be a windows update if there's no IE. They will have to have a special program for that.

3. How will people download a browser (whether Mozilla, IE, whatever), if they don't already have an onboard browser to do the download? Sure, I can use a command line FTP client let alone one with a GUI, but how many people can nowadays? How do you find the download address if you can't use a browser to google one? Are you just supposed to have a friend with the right browser install on a USB stick? For most people, the browser is the link to the internet - without one, they are offline.

It'll be a right pain for the average consumer to bootstrap themselves up to a browser without already having a browser unless MS offers a choice of browsers on install or a custom browser-like program that at least gets you onto the net in some form.

I don't have a problem with preventing MS from using their market dominance to leverage their browser and thus stopping them from doing their "embrace and extend" to screw up standards in favour of their own propriety protocols, but I'm not in favour of screwing over the customer instead. Who would have thought that in 2009/2010 anyone would be shipping an OS without a browser of some description?
 
Windows Update is no longer tied to IE starting with Vista. So that's not a problem for W7.

Unless the EU brings another suit against MS for including IE in Windows Update. :p

Regards,
SB
 
Ike Turner said:
Well Opera is still Full Of Shit, as seen here :

http://www.techflash.com/Opera_exec_says_Microsoft_IE8_concession_wont_be_enough_47852502.html

I can only imagine what's going on in Steve Ballmer's head now knowing that they still have to rely on Opera Mobile on Windows Mobile (90% of the WM phones sold now have Opera as the default browser) for the moment because WM7 is so damn late.
Click to expand...

Finally got around to reading that. Are they freaking serious? Wah, we can't compete so mommy make the other kids let me play.

I dunno Firefox seemed to do quite well operating in the same conditions, in fact taking marketshare away from the big bad monopoly.

Gah... And to think I used to hold a lot of respect for Opera for making a nice browser.

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Wow, it's what I was hoping MS' response to that would be. But I wasn't expecting they would actually do it.

I don't think the EU was expecting them to do it either and was expecting to be able to get a cash payout from MS.

So I guess MS called their bluff. It'll be interesting to see the technical fallout from this. And how 3rd party browser vendors will get their products onto Windows 7.

I'd imagine actually pressing discs for distribution of their browser will incure some fairly significant costs, especially those that don't sell their browser.

Well, I hope Opera is happy with the outcome. I know FF wasn't wanting this to happen.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...
Don´t understand most of your points above. Expecting a cash payout? Really? Who is FF and why didn´t they want this to happen?

I guess you were not around during the Microsoft trial concerning their business practises in the late 90-ties, when Netscape was killed or else you wouldn´t be this surprised. Here´s a link explaining some of it.

I guess the big thing is that new computers must not have IE pre-installed. How many private persons upgrade their OS on their old computer anyways? Not many upgraded to Windows Vista that is for sure, hardly even the computer vendors. Most people buy a computer and use what ever OS is on it until they buy a new computer.

And concerning how to get another browser, there is an update of the article:
Of note, deputy general counsel Dave Heiner notes that Microsoft's action was taken unilaterally and doesn't preclude the EU from ordering some other type of remedy, such as allowing users to choose which browser they want as part of the installation process.

"Our decision to only offer IE separately from Windows 7 in Europe cannot, of course, preclude the possibility of alternative approaches emerging through Commission processes," Heiner wrote. "Other alternatives have been raised in the Commission proceedings, including possible inclusion in Windows 7 of alternative browsers or a 'ballot screen' that would prompt users to choose from a specific set of Web browsers."
Click to expand...
I don´t see that happen, but you'll never know.
 
Crossbar said:
Don´t understand most of your points above. Expecting a cash payout? Really? Who is FF and why didn´t they want this to happen?
Click to expand...

I guess I should have spelled it out. Firefox, or I suppose more appropriately the Mozilla Corporation who were set to testify on behalf of Microsoft.

I guess you were not around during the Microsoft trial concerning their business practises in the late 90-ties, when Netscape was killed or else you wouldn´t be this surprised. Here´s a link explaining some of it.
Click to expand...

While the business practices may have encouraged bundling of IE and the exlusion of Netscape that didn't prevent Netscape from competing. They did quite well until they started to become bug filled pieces of poo. I suppose you weren't around during that time when Netscape went to poo and was just plain out innovated and out executed by Microsoft. This coming from a diehard Netscape fan for the longest time. And a diehard Microsoft hater in the 1990's (I used OS/2 instead of Windows untill Win95/98 when I used both). I finally got rid of my bias and reluctantly switched to IE after Netscape 4.0. By which time Netscape was well and truly a steaming pile of poo.

MS didn't kill Netscape. Netscape killed Netscape.

I guess the big thing is that new computers must not have IE pre-installed. How many private persons upgrade their OS on their old computer anyways? Not many upgraded to Windows Vista that is for sure, hardly even the computer vendors. Most people buy a computer and use what ever OS is on it until they buy a new computer.
Click to expand...

For people that buy computers it won't be a problem as MS will offer IE to system builders for free. And system builders will have the option to install it or perhaps even another browser. Although nothing stops system builders from installing rival browsers currently. And [gasp] those same system builders can set the Windows default browser to something other than IE if they wanted, currently and for the past few years.

And how fair is it to put restrictions on one OS without putting the restriction on all OSes. So in order to make things competitive (since companies are such babies that they can't compete through technology and innovation) you must put an undue burden on those that are successful to help those that aren't?

So wait? We must now reward companies that are inept and can't compete?

Firefox has shown it's able to compete quite well by offering a product that people feel is better than anything the competition can offer. Opera once upon a time was able to do the same and whittled away some marketshare. However, since the advent of Firefox, it's been seeing steady declines. Oh wait, that's not MS...

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
MS didn't kill Netscape. Netscape killed Netscape.
Click to expand...
Seriously, if you were around you should know that Netscape was efficiently killed long before Netscape 4.0.

Silent_Buddha said:
And [gasp] those same system builders can set the Windows default browser to something other than IE if they wanted, currently and for the past few years.
Click to expand...
Were you against that injunction as well?

Silent_Buddha said:
And how fair is it to put restrictions on one OS without putting the restriction on all OSes. So in order to make things competitive (since companies are such babies that they can't compete through technology and innovation) you must put an undue burden on those that are successful to help those that aren't?

So wait? We must now reward companies that are inept and can't compete?
Click to expand...
IMO it´s about allowing competition, I think EU has shown that they are pretty serious about this. For example the company where I work wanted to merge with another European company, but they were not allowed to do that by the EU because they would become to dominant on the market. I am sure consumers all over the world ended up the winners in that case.

The dominant market players will always have to be careful how they behave in the market place, because if they abuse their market position to inhibit competition, their cases will be scrutinized much harder than the small companies.

Nothing new really.
 
Oh great. Thanks a lot EU, now i've got to go through some unecessary pain in the ass process just to be able to get on the internet when I first load up Win7.

The only way I can see for this to work is if different browsers come as options on the Windows CD that you get asked which to install as part of the install process. If not then this is going to be one royal pain in the ass!

I wonder how easy it woul dbe to get hold of a US version here in the UK?
 
Great news.

Of course, the version without IE will need to be less expensive than the version with. And the N version without Media Player should really be a good deal.
 
Ike Turner said:
Looks like the EU commsion isn't happy about this and still wants Mircosoft to bundle Firefox/Opera/Chrome etc with Win7. What a bunch of sutip fucks. Lets see what MS is going to do. Either not comply and just pay the money ( I'm betting on this one) or just for the heck of it, issue a press release stating that because of the EU commission harrassement they are not making Win7 Available in the EU and see what the reaction will be. Gosh this is getting stupid!
Click to expand...

You are the second one seeing that as an alternative for MS. Do you honestly believe that companies can be fined for some kind of wrongdoing, pay the fine and then just keep doing the same thing and everything is OK?

What kind of world are you living in? It doesn´t work like that, the fines will just escalate. If this tells us anything, it is that MS don´t want to be fined by the EU, because it can turnout to be costly even for Microsoft.

Is this a big deal anyway? If you go through the pain of installing a new OS on your computer, installing the browser separately is hardly your biggest problem.
Also keep in mind the EU has not ordered MS to do this, it´s so far just a preventive measure by MS to minimise the risk of costly fines.
 
Posts were deleted. Once again, for those that do not read the first post: if you want to discuss politics, economic strategies please subscribe to the RPSC forum.

It also seems evident most here are falling into the same trap as most comments on the intertubes: this was a voluntary action by Microsoft, not the EC. The final EC may actually be more/less aggressive. Feel free to discuss if this was MS's way to avoid the worst case scenario (for them) of having to bundle (effectively promoting) competing products.

/modhatoff
Personally I believe bundling other browsers/having a ballot system during Windows install is impractical: who gets to decide which browsers make the cut?

Unbundling IE may be the most correct choice though it obviously poses problems for consumers. Having it on Windows Update falls into the same problem as Apple providing "updates" for iTunes just because you have QuickTime installed.

With the OEM pack I think this problem won't exist and the (relatively) small number of people that buy Windows retail will probably be savvy enough to know how to get their favourite browser. The suggested free "IE CD" on stores will further alleviate this though.
 
Richard said:
Personally I believe bundling other browsers/having a ballot system during Windows install is impractical: who gets to decide which browsers make the cut?

Unbundling IE may be the most correct choice though it obviously poses problems for consumers. Having it on Windows Update falls into the same problem as Apple providing "updates" for iTunes just because you have QuickTime installed.

With the OEM pack I think this problem won't exist and the (relatively) small number of people that buy Windows retail will probably be savvy enough to know how to get their favourite browser. The suggested free "IE CD" on stores will further alleviate this though.
Click to expand...

I agree on the bundling of other browsers being impractical (it opens the door to any tom, dick or harry having their browser spread instantly across the world).

But the alternative seems equally crappy for the consumer, especially if its not available through Windows update or some other link in the Windows start menu.

I mean sure, I know how I would get myself a copy, I could just ask a friend to download it and stick it on a USB stick, but thats a hassle for me that I shouldn't have to deal with as a consumer of a modern OS. And picking up a CD would be even more hassle (since i'm likely to order online), unless online vendors will offer free IE (and other browsers) install CD's when you purchase a copy of the OS. But I can't see that happening somehow and I sure as hell don't want to pay extra for it, not even a token amount.
 
Linux has all sorts of package install applications that allow you to download and install drivers, software and so on, without needing a browser. Something similar could be added to Windows 7 and include an option for installing various browsers.
 
While that is technically possible to do with Windows, it doesn't tackle the larger issue -- who fronts the finances to support such an endeavor. I wont go further into that topic in this forum except to say this one thing. The development, support, and maintenance of the required infrastructure is quite extensive and costly.

Are you suggesting they create an online Microsoft App Store in which to sell (includes free apps too) products online? I'm sure someone (EU commission) would deem that to be anti-competitive and illegal monopolistic behavior.
 
BRiT said:
While that is technically possible to do with Windows, it doesn't tackle the larger issue -- who fronts the finances to support such an endeavor. I wont go further into that topic in this forum except to say this one thing. The development, support, and maintenance of the required infrastructure is quite extensive and costly.
Click to expand...

Well, they do already fund the development, support and maintenance of all sorts of other stuff out of the Windows trough. Like the 'free' browser and media player for instance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top