Why most 3D game go "inside" rather than "pop outside" ?

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by orangpelupa, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    hello B3D, this is from my limited gaming experience in 3D so sorry if i miss something.

    any idea why most 3D game go "inside" rather than "pop outside" ? so the screen is acting as a "windows" not as "hologram".

    for example in Crysis 3, by default my TV act as a window to virtual world where the HUD is in the same depth as my TV screen. But by changing the setting on TV, i can make the HUD is floating in the space between my eyes and my TV. This make the 3D more apparent and not easily forgotten after 15 minutes of gameplay.

    The same thing on 3DS, it act as a tiny window into virtual world. Although by carefully creating stereo JPG image, the screen works fine in making the object floats between my eyes and 3DS screen. This "floating above screen" also used in the one of 3DS stock app that have pencil icon orbiting.


    so the common thing is:
    <virtual world>---------[screen]---------------(> eyes

    although this also can be achieved:
    <virtual world>---------[screen]-------<virtual world>--------(> eyes

    is this is a developer choice due to many 3D screen still using active glasses? For me, seeing object floating in space between my eyes and screen is much more headache in 3D active than in 3D passive.


    EDIT:
    the same thing happen on movie theatre too. Most of the scene in 3D movies act as "window to virtual world" and only limited scene is "pop out". For example, on Despicable Me.
     
  2. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
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    I don't know what game developers think about this, but have some personal opinions about film... :wink:

    I think it's a very bad practice to do pop-out objects and it's been used only as gimmicks. Most talented directors use it very carefully and very sparsely, or avoid it completely.

    Because the screen itself is further back from the virtual object, the screen edges clips the object in a way that cannot make any sense to your brain (so, headaches). No such thing occurs for far objects, because the screen clips exactly like a window would.

    Your eyes also have a tendency to try to refocus on closer object, causing headaches because there are two different mechanisms in your brain that are fighting each other, it can converge but cannot focus. The eyes will always try to focus to the actual screen, which the sharp edge always provide a reference. The screen being the closest reference, it makes the eyes comfortable focusing there all the time, The eyes don't try to converge, and they don't try to focus. They will relax because everything is always sharp anyway from that distance and forward.

    There are a lot of differences in screen sizes and distance (different theaters, TV sizes, sitting positions, etc...) causing a gigantic error with front objects, but there's a nice tolerance for back objects. What's interesting for VR is that there's an opportunity to have a "perfect" projection and in theory there's no actual "pop-out" since the screen is very close to your eyes. It's going to be a big improvement because it's the only way to get a 3D that is geometrically perfect for everybody.
     
  3. Jedi2016

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    One word: Scale. A man, monster, or building in your living room doesn't really seem as big as it does when it's very far away, yeah?

    Believe me, I'm a big proponent of 3D, but throwing things out of the screen at you, just for the sake of throwing things out of the screen at you, which is what most "pop-out" 3D winds up being, is the very essence of a gimmick. It adds nothing beyond itself. 3D is, overall, supposed to increase immersion, it's not supposed to just be a "wow factor". Being constantly reminded that you're playing 3D only serves to take you out of the game, not pull you further in.. you're supposed to forget that it's 3D. That just means you're absorbed in the effect. Even if you think it's "pointless", you'll go back to playing the 2D version and you'll feel that it's missing something that you can't quite put your finger on.
     
  4. 3dcgi

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    Depth inside the screen is easier on the eyes than popping out. It's as simple as that.
     
  5. DuckThor Evil

    DuckThor Evil Anas platyrhynchos
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    I played Arkham City on the PC in 3D and with adjusting the settings you can choose whether Batman is inside or outside the screen and him being outside looked much more impressive to me. I'm not talking about things "popping out", but being out constantly.
     
  6. tuna

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    I think it is cool to use pop out for special stuff, but it usually works better in the cinema than at home. Particles are usually really great.
     
  7. Dominik D

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    View frustum (red) of your eye (black) cannot accommodate large objects in front of the screen. Object (green) in the picture fits nicely behind the screen but would be cut on the screen edges if displayed frontally (yellow). Remember that at the end of the day you're looking at what's shown on the screen (blue) so objects have to exist with the frustum. That's why pop-out pieces are usually centered (true for arrows and balls coming at you in movies) or behave oddly on the edges (some billboards on 3DS' marketplace).

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Globalisateur

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    Cave Story 3D on 3DS is one of the rare game on the handheld heavily using "pop outside" stereoscopic 3D.

    I really like it but it's better not to focus on those "near objects" and just thave them on your periphery vision. But it really adds "depth" to the game notably when it's used by subtle effects like particles/snow/rain.
     
  9. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    I found some of the moments in Trine on PS4 where a tree (or something) would pop out, to be quite well done. Actually the whole 3D gaming on PS4 is leaps and bound the crosstalk mess that was 3D gaming on PS3, as a side note.
     
  10. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Surely that's because of the TVs? Or higher resolution?
     
  11. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
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    On the PS4 it is mostly higher processing speed of the PS4 having more power to spare, and the fact that two of the best 3D games in general (Trine and Zen. Pinball) also happen to be on PS4.

    Are there any other games that support 3D SB?
     
  12. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    How does that solve 'crosstalk mess'? As I understand, cross-talk is entirely down to the 3D glasses not occluding the wrong eye 100%. I can't see a reason why the 3D rendering would introduce the wrong eye data into a frame. Or are we talking about 3D reconstruction from 2D sources having artefacts that PS4 can clean up/render in native 3D?
     
  13. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
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    A lot of it has to do with the developers working around the crosstalk. A bit like in movies.
     
  14. Graham

    Graham Hello :-)
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    It is true the 3D in trine2 on the ps4 is leaps and bounds beyond any 3D I've experienced on the ps3. However that's partly the 'shoebox' style level design, partly the awesome resolution/framerate and partly my new TV having passive 3D :mrgreen:

    On topic though, my experience with kz3 was that pop-out caused by far the worst crosstalk problems. Things like particles etc. I suppose it is the exaggerated separation, perhaps? As things get closer to the viewer, they get exponentially further apart when projecting to two 3D views, which will hamper crosstalk and make it harder for your brain to resolve the image.
     
  15. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    What TV do you have, Graham?
     
  16. Graham

    Graham Hello :-)
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    This. The higher end models have passive 3D for each horizontal line, so each eye gets 3840x1080. It's nice :mrgreen: The lower spec/smaller versions are active 3D or not 1080 passive.
    Not sure on the current models though.
     
  17. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Totally OT, what are the magnetic fluid speakers like? Sounds like a great idea.
     
  18. Silent_Buddha

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    The only way to really enjoy 3D. :) I have an earlier model LG passive 3D TV. I still think 3D is a gimmick though. But at least light weight passive glasses without the need to synchronize shutters with the screen mostly provide a trouble free and unobtrusive experience.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  19. Graham

    Graham Hello :-)
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    Absolutely amazing, considering the size. :mrgreen:
     
  20. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Wow, very nice. Unfortunately way to big for here - I can entertain a 55" at most, 50" is about tight. I may have to settle for the X85 series starts kicks at off 50" (well 49") then 55" which also has passive 3D.

    Damn! I didn't think I needed a new TV, and arguably I don't, but now I want one anyway :twisted:
     
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