Which console has the best development environment?
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marconelly!
Veteran
I think it's a common knowledge that XBox devkit is the most user friendly.
I'd like to know what is the GC and PS2 dev kit like these days? What process do you go through to program for these machines? What OS/Compiler is used, etc, etc...
I'd like to know what is the GC and PS2 dev kit like these days? What process do you go through to program for these machines? What OS/Compiler is used, etc, etc...
I'd have to second ERP there. It's not just the ease of the platform use, it's also the fact that XBox offers by far the best compiler solution at the time.
SNSystems ProDG offers MSDev integration for some time now. I think Metrowerks offers something similar as well, though I haven't used it, so I am not sure how well it works.
Actually to be fair we've used MSDev throughout development of our game, linked to external stuff. After switching to SNSystems tools, the integration was just more complete (no more external makefiles, native win32 compiler instead of calling networked linux one, debugger IDE etc).
Compilers I know for PS2 are GCC (Linux/Win32(ProDG)), CodeWarior, and VectorC. I don't know much about the last, except that it looks interesting for offering C++ -> VU compiler.
GCC also has CW and ProDG, not sure if there are others, maybe ERP knows more there.
In that case they'd all rate the same
SNSystems ProDG offers MSDev integration for some time now. I think Metrowerks offers something similar as well, though I haven't used it, so I am not sure how well it works.Actually to be fair we've used MSDev throughout development of our game, linked to external stuff. After switching to SNSystems tools, the integration was just more complete (no more external makefiles, native win32 compiler instead of calling networked linux one, debugger IDE etc).
As I mentioned above, at this point both platforms offer development tools that allow you to basically stay under Win32&MSDev all the way. So all you need is the software, a devkit, and a win32 workstation with a network card.
Compilers I know for PS2 are GCC (Linux/Win32(ProDG)), CodeWarior, and VectorC. I don't know much about the last, except that it looks interesting for offering C++ -> VU compiler.
GCC also has CW and ProDG, not sure if there are others, maybe ERP knows more there.
Well that depends on your backround... I know guys who are in hog heaven with gcc, gdb, a good reference manual (HTML or hardbound) and vi (or emacs). Then there are those who get brave and toy around with Python, Ruby, or Lisp in their games... To them Visual Studio is analogus as VB is to C/C++...
Of course if you're coming from a Windows PC, then you really can't beat Xbox since you've great compilers, and dev environment. Of course there *are* differences in going from PC to console that *some* developers don't grasp right away...
Anyhow, I was more a NeXT guy, so I found the rather 'austere' environment of the PS2 more to my liking since I simply tore the SDK down and rebuilt it to work with Project Builder from OS X. That also allowed me to bogard some functionality from Interface Builder, OmniGraffle (for my visual scripter), my VU shader builder, some pretty nifty Maya integration tools. Never did get any audio tool integration though.
If I were to work on another platform it'd probably be the AGB though... It's rather natsukashii...
Yeah, I've really found that things depend on your background a lot. An example is that I've got two professors who are great lowlevel unix programmers. One loves GDB, the other doesn't.
Similarly, some people hate having to program the lowlevel hardware and would perfer to work in a clean and abstracted environment. Others like getting down and dirty and do things even the people who built the system never intended.
Personally I probably fall somewhere inbetween. I hate coding in java, but I'm all that fond of asm either. A nice healthy does of C is still my favorite.
Nite_Hawk
Similarly, some people hate having to program the lowlevel hardware and would perfer to work in a clean and abstracted environment. Others like getting down and dirty and do things even the people who built the system never intended.
Personally I probably fall somewhere inbetween. I hate coding in java, but I'm all that fond of asm either. A nice healthy does of C is still my favorite.
Nite_Hawk
randycat99
Veteran
Anybody have "the word" on how well VectorC is being accepted in developer circles? Is it making significant inroads into PS2 programming similar to the way that Cg and Rendermonkey are promising inroads into the higher functionalities of the latest videocards?
Anybody seen the latest NFS on PS2? How was this game even possible on there doing what it does given that people thought the hardware was pretty much tapped-out doing much less in other games prior to NFS? Was this just developers who really knew what they were doing, better tools, VectorC involved at all, or just expertly done artwork?
Anybody seen the latest NFS on PS2? How was this game even possible on there doing what it does given that people thought the hardware was pretty much tapped-out doing much less in other games prior to NFS? Was this just developers who really knew what they were doing, better tools, VectorC involved at all, or just expertly done artwork?
I don't know how it is being accepted, but I can give my personal feelings from evaluating it a bit.
Basically, the normal C/C++ compiler clearly still has ways to go, and won't be replacing other compilers anytime soon IMO.
I could see it used to optimize a chosen few files, that's about it. The whole auto-vectorization thing in straight C code doesn't seem all that usefull to begin with - there's dozens of compiler "hints" you need to learn about before you can start seeing decent optimizer results there, and default performance tends to be lower then competing 'normal' compilers too.
VU micro code compiler on the other hand, seems to be pretty great stuff, that one I could see getting widespread use. It pretty much enables you to write your shaders in C/C++, something most people would find hard to beat I think.
David_South#1
Banned
Would anyone care to share how Criterion's Renderware fits into the development world?
As I understand it they allow cross platform coding.
http://eg04.inrialpes.fr/Download/Proceedings/Tutorial-4.pdf
Just curious to see if opinions have changed about developement,
or at least how development knowledge and views have improved.
Very little has been said of GameCube development.
But it seems interesting to me as the games look very good.
Even if the games aren't always the most most popular.
As I understand it they allow cross platform coding.
http://eg04.inrialpes.fr/Download/Proceedings/Tutorial-4.pdf
Just curious to see if opinions have changed about developement,
or at least how development knowledge and views have improved.
Very little has been said of GameCube development.
But it seems interesting to me as the games look very good.
Even if the games aren't always the most most popular.
Sheesh,
Talk about bringing a topic back from the dead! It's been nearly two years since this thread died! I was thinking to myself, "self, what have you posted in the console forum recently hmmm?" when I got the email notification. Wow!
As for Renderware, I really don't know. Sorry... :/
Nite_Hawk
Talk about bringing a topic back from the dead! It's been nearly two years since this thread died!
I was thinking to myself, "self, what have you posted in the console forum recently hmmm?" when I got the email notification. Wow!As for Renderware, I really don't know. Sorry... :/
Nite_Hawk
Renderware is a middleware solution.
Think of it as a collection of API's, to do the usual game stuff.
It doesn't in and of itself change the development environment, but it does provide a layer of abstraction from the hardware.
IMO if you aiming at a AAA quality title middleware engines like this don't really save much on the overall code development effort, they do let you get up and running and generating assets a lot sooner. Which can be a huge win.
Think of it as a collection of API's, to do the usual game stuff.
It doesn't in and of itself change the development environment, but it does provide a layer of abstraction from the hardware.
IMO if you aiming at a AAA quality title middleware engines like this don't really save much on the overall code development effort, they do let you get up and running and generating assets a lot sooner. Which can be a huge win.
FatherJohn
Newcomer
Renderware (now owned by EA) is huge -- I have heard that something like 30% of all cross-platform console game titles are written using Renderware.
The biggest game franchise of the last three years (GTA3 and its follow-ons) was written using RenderWare. GTA3 shows that you can have a hit game with poor graphics, as long as the gameplay resonates with players.
From what I've seen at GDC, Renderware's development environment is quite good. I think you're still stuck using the console vendor's compilers and debuggers for any C++ code you write, but if you are just using the base Renderware engine with your own art and scripts, you can live in a whizzy interactive see-your-changes-in-real-time-on-all-three-consoles-and-a-PC world.
It will be interesting to see what EA does with Renderware. They could use it to become the Microsoft of the games business.
Or alternatively they could bury it, since it's possible they bought Criterion solely for the Burnout franchise.
Or they could use it mostly for in-house cross-platform ports.
Or perhaps they could spin it off to some other company.
In any event, if I were a non-EA Renderware customer I would be worried about the future of Renderware.
The biggest game franchise of the last three years (GTA3 and its follow-ons) was written using RenderWare. GTA3 shows that you can have a hit game with poor graphics, as long as the gameplay resonates with players.
From what I've seen at GDC, Renderware's development environment is quite good. I think you're still stuck using the console vendor's compilers and debuggers for any C++ code you write, but if you are just using the base Renderware engine with your own art and scripts, you can live in a whizzy interactive see-your-changes-in-real-time-on-all-three-consoles-and-a-PC world.
It will be interesting to see what EA does with Renderware. They could use it to become the Microsoft of the games business.
Or alternatively they could bury it, since it's possible they bought Criterion solely for the Burnout franchise.
Or they could use it mostly for in-house cross-platform ports.
Or perhaps they could spin it off to some other company.
In any event, if I were a non-EA Renderware customer I would be worried about the future of Renderware.
JacksBleedingEyes
Regular
Well wether or not the XBox has the most user friendly environement is a bit irrelevant if the quality of their games is often sub-par to the o so uncomfortable to develop on PS2.
Faf,
You spoke about VectorC in your 2002 post and said it was lacking then. What's it like now, assuming it is still being developed/maintained?
You spoke about VectorC in your 2002 post and said it was lacking then. What's it like now, assuming it is still being developed/maintained?
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