When will traditional monitors come to a point where they are infeasible?

Discussion in 'PC Hardware, Software and Displays' started by K.I.L.E.R, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. K.I.L.E.R

    K.I.L.E.R Retarded moron
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    When will current generation monitors need to be replaced?

    What limitations do they currently have in relation to 3D graphics?

    Is the range of colours of traditional CRTs and LCDs posing as a future problem?

    What could eventually replace traditional monitors?
     
  2. chavvdarrr

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    seeing that people buy LCD's that can't display milions of colours, it seems these do not care about "quality" so much... maybe Nvidia was right after all - 16bpp is enough ...
    :evil:
     
  3. akira888

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    Wouldn't that be 3DFX? On the other hand Nvidia had one of the first architectures - TNT(2) - that gave decent performance with 32 bit color.
     
  4. JHoxley

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    Just as a thought...

    If I can take a decent shot using my digital camera - lots of crisp details and vibrant colours, then upload it to my PC, look at it on my TFT monitor and, minor errors ignored, have it appear the same as when I looked through the optical viewfinder to take the picture - surely there isn't a problem :)

    I think, if anything, the limiting factor is still internal - the linear 8bit scale doesn't really do images justice these days. Various tricks (such as gamma ramps) get around a lot of the limitations, but things like the FP32 and HDRI technologies are the important ones as I see it.

    hth
    Jack
     
  5. L233

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    Everyone who buys your average TN-Panel "gamer" TFT obviously doesn't give a shit about image quality. It's interessting to see that some people seem to be unable to perceive the lack of color fidelity, rough gray scale gradient and shitty black display of TN-Panel TFTs. These damn things, that are usually recommended by hardware test websites and magazines, are a huge step back from an CRT in terms of image quality.

    TFTs with MVA/PVA Panels are quite a lot better but they aren't competitive with TN-Panel displays when it comes to switch time. The new-ish Overdrive tech made things a lot better, getting almost entirely rid of ghosting, but you still have a somewhat more pronounced motion blurriness than you have with TN-Panels. Still, buying a TN-Panel display is no feasible alternative, considering the utter shit picture quality.

    Also, there is no way you can get rid of the inherent motion blurriness that comes with the LCD technology. You will always have that, no matter how low the switching time of your LCD monitor is. It's even there with the latest and greatest in TN-panel displays, e.g. Viewsonic's 3ms TFT. I can easily be perceived in games with high contrast textures like World of Warcraft. Just face a house front from a distance and then slowly move your view port left and right... the textures will appear slightly out of focus. This is and will always be a problem with LCD panels. Another worst-case are games like the EA Sports FIFA series.

    CRTs have problems with geometry, low luminescence, unstable pictures and of course flickering. Plus, they are bulky and need a lot of energy. LCDs don't have that problem but they introduce a whole new slew of problems. And going TN-panel (which most people probably do, especially gamers) is a significant downgrade in terms of image quality.

    I'm currently using a Fujitsu-Siemens P19-2 19" TFT with a 8ms Overdrive MVA panel. It's probably one of the best 19" TFTs currently out there, offering a very good compromise between image quality, view angle and response time. Still, I am very aware of its shortcomings.

    As of yet, there is no display technology that I would consider completely satisfactory. I feel that neither CRT nor LCD have much of a future... something entirely different is needed.

    There seems to be a new CRT tech by Samsung IIRC where every pixel has it's own electron ray or something weird like that. Supposedly, this tech enables really flat CRTs with much higher luminescence and no geometric distortions. Maybe this will be a good compromise for computer displays. I don't know. Maybe OLEDs will be the next big thing.

    All I know is that I want something better than traditional CRTs and LCDs because, frankly, they both suck ass.
     
    #5 L233, Sep 9, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2005
    Hyp-X and Ailuros like this.
  6. L233

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    Hell, if it even was 8bit. Most TN-panel displays only feature 6bit per channel, a total of 262144 colours.
     
  7. MfA

    MfA
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    Wasn't some company (Philips?) developing LCD monitors which turn off backlighting during switching to get rid of blur?

    That still leaves blacklevel as a problem, but the LED based backlighting from the HDR displays can help quite a bit there ... not cheap though.
     
    #7 MfA, Sep 9, 2005
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  8. L233

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    Yes, I have read something about that a few months ago. Of course, it's questionable whether this will every make it to the market. Who wants a TFT that, to some degree, flickers like a CRT? Anyway, it's an interesting idea and it at least shows that there are some companies that are looking into these issues.

    Still, I kinda have the feeling that LCD is a dead end for computer displays.
     
  9. Xmas

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    Surface-conduction electron-emitter displays (SED), developed by Toshiba and Canon. IIRC they recently started production of 50" panels for TVs, but it's still years away from mass availability.
     
  10. L233

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    Do you know more about this technology? I just read a short blurb about it a few months ago and I thought it sounded interesting but I don't really know what it's all about.
     
  11. MfA

    MfA
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    Basically a refinement of FED ... for which the main problem has always been longevity (it's ancient technology). Here's some PR from Canon. Motorola is also working on something simular, using carbon nanotubes as emitters ... but they havent had a full sized prototype AFAIK.

    Maybe Canon will really pull it off, it seems they have been working on it for a long time ... perhaps they just held back from commercialization because of patent issues (they bought Candescent, a company which was going to commercialize FEDs within 1 or 2 years for a decade ... but which did hold a lot of patents, and as always those patents will cover working products even if you can't manage to get it working).
     
    #11 MfA, Sep 9, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2005
  12. Xmas

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  13. doob

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    Neither CRT or TFT/LCD variants will be a dead tech over the next 20 years or more.

    Just face it, open your eyes, forget the criticism. Currently there ins't a better technology avaiable, or neither will be so soon. So CRTs will still be used for who's interested in the best image quality (Mainly Multimedia studios, Engineering etc) and some everyday people who are aware of technology nowadays.
    TFTs will have no problems either with future industry. Despite of all the problems it faces described before, there isnt any better portable screen technology with low power requirements that surpasses their current image quality.

    And the only tft i own is from my laptop.
    For desktop/workstation environments i still use CRTs. And most certanly will, untill something better shows up.
     
  14. MfA

    MfA
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    IFire should have a pilot manufacturing facility completed "soon" for their flat display as well BTW.

    CRTs can still get thinner of course ... have any monitors based on Samsung's Vixlim shown up yet?
     
  15. L233

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    Commercially, they won't. You're right. Technologically, they have been a dead end for quite some time.
     
  16. Wunderchu

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    NVIDIA's Davik Kirk made the following comment related to this topic:
     
  17. MfA

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    I wonder what those HDR displays will do when you display very bright scenes ... I wouldnt be surprised if they overheat something mighty (they are able to output much more light than a CRT ... if they couldnt we wouldnt need them, because it is relatively straightforward to increase the dynamic range of CRTs).
     
  18. Graham

    Graham Hello :-)
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    This has convinced me that I'd stop lurking and finally register:

    At siggraph this year, the company BrightSide were showing off their HDR-HD displays. full 1080P resolution, 16bit/channel. They claim 300,000:1 contrast ratio, and I believe it. Of everything I saw there, this by far was the tech that I wanted the most. The images were simply stunning (dispite most of the content they were showing was filtered 8bit)

    They did have some 12bit content to show, where were impressive. Interestingly, they were showing a 12bit movie from EA's fightnight round 3 (ps3/xbox360 game). I asked a few questions, and it turned out that it wasn't actually an in-game movie running in HDR, as they had rendered the background in HDR seperatly then compositied it with the 8bit foreground for the movie.

    Perhaps the most impressive aspect of this, was that you got naturally occuring image bloom. No more post processing needed :) - in fact the blooming used in the EA demo actually made it look bad

    Of all the videos they showed, one in perticular was impressive. It was still 8-bit, but had a filter running in the TV's hardware to convert it to 16bit depedning on the gradients in the image (I would guess). Anyway, at one point in this video, a 3D genie fired some magic spell at you. There is a brief, but *incredibly bright* flash. It was amazing.

    The company were also talking about their HDR-JPEG and HDR-MPEG formats, which sound promising as they are apparently backwards compatible.
     
  19. Wunderchu

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    sounds cool :)

    ..and, welcome to the Beyond3D forums :)
     
    #19 Wunderchu, Sep 10, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2005
  20. fallguy

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    Here comes more of the anti-lcd ignorance again...
     
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