What Sorts of Games Really REQUIRE a HDD?

[BenQ]

When the Xbox was released I was REALLY sold on the idea of a HDD for games. And I'm NOT talking about the little extra, such as custom soundtracks, game saves or downloadable content. I firmly believed the HDD was Required for certian games, and I sang it's praises.

But over time I became less sure.

I got a Gaming PC and was suprised to see that long loadtimes were common place, and these games are located ENTIRELY on the HDD.

I saw games like GRAW where you'd be flying over this MASSIVE city with no problems whatsoever.

And then I was SHOCKED ( really ) to learn that even a Game like OBLIVION didn't require a HDD at all. I was SO SURE that it would.

There's alot of talk about the 360's and PS3's HDDs and I'm starting to question if any of it matters.

What are some kinds of games that would truly Require a HDD anyway? And aside from the little things that I already mentioned, what would be the difference if the 360 and PS3 never had a HDD at all? Because a HDD certiany doesn't need to be "standard" to have things like game saves, custom soundtracks or downloadable content. Buy it if you want those things....or not.

In what ways would developers be limited by a NON Standard HDD?

 

[nintenho]

In what ways would developers be limited by a NON Standard HDD?

They wouldn't be able to stream as much. There is this one 360 GTA-like game called Saint's Row that they had to cut airplane flying out of when they found out that the hard drive isn't standard...

Also, the developers of oblivion said that they will make the game take as much advantage of the hard drive as possible to while still not requiring it. I don't know if that means shorter load times or what.

For the record, there is actually one 360 game that requires the hard drive. It's a soccer team management game made by Sega that takes 50 megabytes per save/season. I think and it has a (obvious) symbol on the front of the box that says that the hard drive is required.

 

[liolio]

Nice question, i HOpe Devs will answer this, no NDA on this

 

[Platon]

They wouldn't be able to stream as much. There is this one 360 GTA-like game called Saint's Row that they had to cut airplane flying out of when they found out that the hard drive isn't standard...

I have heard this before and I don't really doubt it, but still I have difficulty believing that the lack of HDD is the whole story, because what would it matter if you had a HDD or not if you are going to take a plane ride.

I don't really know how that plane ride was supposed to be implemented, but if it was that you were able to take a plane and during the flight load the next city or whatever, I don't see the lach of HDD being of importance.

Nice topic by the way. I was asking myself similar questions and it has been discussed a bit in other threads...

 

[kyleb]

There is this one 360 GTA-like game called Saint's Row that they had to cut airplane flying out of when they found out that the hard drive isn't standard...

Heh, more like "chose to." It isn't like there is anything inherent to plane flying that requires a HDD.

 

[London Geezer]

Massivelymultiplayeronlineroleplayinggames? (try saying that 10 times fast!)

Seriously, I think the HDD would be needed only if the game is designed to need it.

We've had massive worlds without loading even on old consoles, without HDD. Saves would do better with a HDD of course, and in general a HDD could aid a game on many things, but the game would only need the HDD if it's made to need it.

 

[speng]

Massive Multiplayer Online Games

As london-boy says, these so far are the only games that require a HDD. They need to be updated and they use lots of space. You probably could try streaming some content for a MMOG from a large 2GB memory stick, but I believe load times would suffer. The games would not be seamless and there would have to be a zoning system similar to EQ or Dungeon's and Dragons. I'm not entirely sure how executables could be upgraded without the HDD.

Other than MMOGs and games of that nature, the HDD provides a good convenience while developing.

Speng.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Heh, more like "chose to." It isn't like there is anything inherent to plane flying that requires a HDD.

If you travel through a city at 30 MPH, you will have a maximum transfer rate at which new buildings with textures needs to be loaded, maybe 40 buildings a minute (PITSF). If you then fly through the city at 100+ MPH, you're going to be needing 3x the transfer speed because textures are going to need to be loaded for all the buildings appearing much faster, perhaps 120 buildings per minute. If DVD can't supply the files fast enough for the textures for 120 buildings a minute, you either have to use much smaller textures or cap speed at whatever the DVD can support, which is, say, 30 mph. That means dropping the plane.

That's a plausible reason where designing for HDD, the moment the HDD stops becoming standard, a feature is dropped because the hardware can't support it.

 

[assen]

Massive Multiplayer Online Games

As london-boy says, these so far are the only games that require a HDD. They need to be updated and they use lots of space. You probably could try streaming some content for a MMOG from a large 2GB memory stick, but I believe load times would suffer. The games would not be seamless and there would have to be a zoning system similar to EQ or Dungeon's and Dragons. I'm not entirely sure how executables could be upgraded without the HDD.

The executable can perfectly well be downloaded each and every time - it's on the order of several megabytes, after all, and the download can go in parallel with the streaming from DVD of the other content.

There's nothing inherently hard-drive-requiring about MMOGs. The publisher loses the ability to send new content in patches, but that's all.

 

[pc999]

It really depends on which kind of features you want one the game, eg a complex persistent world will need one.

 

[blakjedi]

They wouldn't be able to stream as much. There is this one 360 GTA-like game called Saint's Row that they had to cut airplane flying out of when they found out that the hard drive isn't standard...

BS. You can fly planes and helis in GTA San Andreas without a HDD.

 

[scooby_dooby]

BS. You can fly planes and helis in GTA San Andreas without a HDD.

But that's a totally different game with a different engine so how is it relevant?

In Saint's row they had to cut flying because they couldn't stream the data fast enough, end of story, if you're looking for effects of not having a HDD standard there you go. THQ stated point blank that if HDD was standard they could have included the flying.

Maybe it is possible without a HDD, but in the real world developers don't have unlimited time, HDD makes some things easier, and therefore makes it more likely they get into the games.

I don't think it's required for anything, it's just an enhancement, and if developers choose to take advantage of the extra's it offers we maybe get a better game. I think the most important aspect of HDD is their ability to allow for episodic content which is probably the single biggest contribution they'll make this generation.

 

[kyleb]

...
That's a plausible reason where designing for HDD, the moment the HDD stops becoming standard, a feature is dropped because the hardware can't support it.

Or rather, becuase the developers choose not to implement a LOD system which allows the hardware to support it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They probably could rework flying in, but I don't know how much they'd have to change in their engine. If they were expecting an HDD, developed for that, and found their enging wasn't capable of supporting flying without the HDD, economic reasons could prevent them adding it.

 

[blakjedi]

But that's a totally different game with a different engine so how is it relevant?

In Saint's row they had to cut flying because they couldn't stream the data fast enough, end of story, if you're looking for effects of not having a HDD standard there you go. THQ stated point blank that if HDD was standard they could have included the flying.

Ok so they made the WRONG engine then. Because if they can do flying, which is the whole point of this topic, in a GTA style game... (errr that seems relevant) on an older console then... what exactly is the problem again??

Ok lets look at it another way. Can someone verify whether you can play GRAW, which has the most spectacular geometry and draw distance currently available, during its flying elements, on an X360 without the HDD?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Ok lets look at it another way. Can someone verify whether you can play GRAW, which has the most spectacular geometry and draw distance currently available, during its flying elements on an X360 without the HDD?

But in GRAW you never travel more than 2 or 3 blocks, so you might see all that cool city there, but you can't actually fly over there.

Saint's row was built around the idea of no load times, none whatsoever, I believe this is why flying had to be cut when thy found out the HDD was not standard, they were aiming for a higher transfer speed than what they got.

 

[blakjedi]

But in GRAW you never travel more than 2 or 3 blocks, so you might see all that cool city there, but you can't actually fly over there.

Saint's row was built around the idea of no load times, none whatsoever, I believe this is why flying had to be cut when thy found out the HDD was not standard, they were aiming for a higher transfer speed than what they got.

I dont like it or believe it... but I buy it.

 

[assen]

It really depends on which kind of features you want one the game, eg a complex persistent world will need one.

A persistent world persists on the servers, or you can hack the hell out of it in the comfort of your own home.

 

[pc999]

I was thinking in a single player game that as lot things to remind, probably a new kind of game (eg Black meets Starcraft or something like), or even in a more "simple way" as Halo here nothing changes from the beginig to the end of the level.

 

[kyleb]

They probably could rework flying in, but I don't know how much they'd have to change in their engine. If they were expecting an HDD, developed for that, and found their enging wasn't capable of supporting flying without the HDD, economic reasons could prevent them adding it.

Sure, but my point remains that it is not the lack of the hardrive itself that limits such functionality but rather the choice of the developers, be it with respect to budget considerations or otherwise.

Besides, hasn't MS always made it clear that games need to developed with the understanding that the HDD won't always be there? And did the developers of Saints Row ever show any flying built into their game at any point? Seems more likely to me that they just made the claim as a convenient excuse and to critizise MS's choice to sell core systems.