What Happened To Durango?

[TheChefO]

Anyone remember the early days of XB720 rumors where Devs were clamoring over the specs/power?

Phrases like "Supercomputer" were being tossed around and "It's weird, like two PC's duck-taped together".

Then of course there was the near unanimous vote for Durango to win next gen.

Based on the specs leaked, I think myself and quite a few others will be jumping ship to Sony's platform which clearly takes Core gamers more seriously.

So then, What happened to Durango?

None of the early hints of power/spec seem to be on display here and from the comments of some MS insiders (ahem) it seems perhaps some of the big-wigs at MS decided this would be "enough" for them.

I completely understand their desire to be profitable asap and risk averse, however, how can Sony (by all accounts is near the edge of financial ruin) afford to put a decent spec machine together, but MS decides all they can muster is a 120mm2 gpu, a pair of netbook cpus, and 8gb of ddr3 (retail around $40).

Was Durango once set to be this architecture that we see, but linked together (Durango x2)?

Is the spec that we see the "set top box" version while the high end version is yet to be revealed?

What happened to the "Dual GPU" setup that was supposed to have one gpu drawing one part of the screen while another worked on the rest?


What happened to Durango?

 

[Albuquerque]

Ok, let me start by pointing out that I'm not a console follower at all -- there can only be one glorious master gaming race, and it isn't the evaporated condensed lukewarm milk that is console gaming.

That said, this looks like a poorly disguised troll thread. This quote specifically:

Based on the specs leaked, I think myself and quite a few others will be jumping ship to Sony's platform which clearly takes Core gamers more seriously.

Any "core gamer" doesn't give two shits about some random hardware specification; you play GAMES, you don't play the hardware spec. Case in point: ZOMG CELL WILL PWNZ0R UR SOUL from the current console cripple fight, only to show that ZOMG CELL didn't produce any more specifically capable games than the PowerPC platform did.

So... If we're talking about what happened to all the hype and nonsense about ZOMG SUPERCOMPUTER, I think we can categorize that in the same dev\null bitbucket as ZOMG CELL.

 

[dumbo11]

Anyone remember the early days of XB720 rumors where Devs were clamoring over the specs/power?

Phrases like "Supercomputer" were being tossed around and "It's weird, like two PC's duck-taped together".

But the Durango spec *is* weird, like 2 PC's duck-taped together (is it duck tape or duct tape? that has always confused me ).

Was Durango once set to be this architecture that we see, but linked together (Durango x2)?

Is the spec that we see the "set top box" version while the high end version is yet to be revealed?

What happened to the "Dual GPU" setup that was supposed to have one gpu drawing one part of the screen while another worked on the rest?

I think this was always misunderstood. People took rumour A added to rumour B and created a dinosaur that shoots lasers out of it's eyes...

Rumour: The Durango comprises 'Durango: set top box with Kinect!'and 'Durango: games machine'.
Reality: Exactly that.

Rumour: The Durango has 2 CPUs, one (low power, always on) for the media center, and one (high power) for the game console.
Reality: Basically that, but rather than 2 discrete CPUs, they are simply 2 parts of the same CPU - much cheaper and more efficient.

Rumour: The Durango resembles a supercomputer.
Reality: The Durango resembles a supercomputer *architecture*.

The 2 GPU thing may indeed be true (I can't see how the machine is going to handle all the HDMI bits/overlay without access to some form of graphics processor?). But I haven't seen any rumours at all on that.

Performance-wise, we need to wait and see. Based on what's been said, there are natural, valid concerns - but rumours are often misinterpreted.

 

[TheChefO]

That said, this looks like a poorly disguised troll thread. This quote specifically..

No, actually over the years, I've been an xbox fan for the core tech and eventually, the exclusives. But, if every multiplat is going to run better on Orbis (most games are multiplat these days) then I'd be a fool to willingly choose the machine that will likely chug along at 20-30fps when (judging by the numbers) Orbis will pull the same content at 30fps+.

Now, if the exclusives mean that much to you, then yes you will stick with x platform regardless. But as we saw last gen (and I predict further this gen) more and more games will be multiplat. I'm not going to base my console decision on 1% of the total game purchases (ie: exclusives).

 

[TheChefO]

But the Durango spec *is* weird, like 2 PC's duck-taped together (is it duck tape or duct tape? that has always confused me ).



I think this was always misunderstood. People took rumour A added to rumour B and created a dinosaur that shoots lasers out of it's eyes...

Rumour: The Durango comprises 'Durango: set top box with Kinect!'and 'Durango: games machine'.
Reality: Exactly that.

Rumour: The Durango has 2 CPUs, one (low power, always on) for the media center, and one (high power) for the game console.
Reality: Basically that, but rather than 2 discrete CPUs, they are simply 2 parts of the same CPU - much cheaper and more efficient.

Rumour: The Durango resembles a supercomputer.
Reality: The Durango resembles a supercomputer *architecture*.

The 2 GPU thing may indeed be true (I can't see how the machine is going to handle all the HDMI bits/overlay without access to some form of graphics processor?). But I haven't seen any rumours at all on that.

Performance-wise, we need to wait and see. Based on what's been said, there are natural, valid concerns - but rumours are often misinterpreted.

Perhaps. That just seems a bit too simplistic to me.

Not sure why anyone would confuse (2) quadcores as "two pcs duck taped together"

The setop box thing - again xbox360 does most of that functionality now. Not sure why there would be smoke regarding a settop box version if the origination was simply that the new one will do some settop box functionality...

And saying jaguar resembles a supercomputer is .. ehm ... a stretch.

Perhaps there's more to the HDMI-IN than we know?

Another SKU?

Or did MS simply cheap out?

 

[XpiderMX]

MS is building a console with different purposes than Xbox 360 (and Orbis). Or maybe there are some things that we don't know yet (I hope).

And for the topic, I guess Sony changed some things (2GB->4GB for example).

 

[upnorthsox]

Ok, let me start by pointing out that I'm not a console follower at all -- there can only be one glorious master gaming race, and it isn't the evaporated condensed lukewarm milk that is console gaming.

That said, this looks like a poorly disguised troll thread. This quote specifically:


Any "core gamer" doesn't give two shits about some random hardware specification; you play GAMES, you don't play the hardware spec. Case in point: ZOMG CELL WILL PWNZ0R UR SOUL from the current console cripple fight, only to show that ZOMG CELL didn't produce any more specifically capable games than the PowerPC platform did.

So... If we're talking about what happened to all the hype and nonsense about ZOMG SUPERCOMPUTER, I think we can categorize that in the same dev\null bitbucket as ZOMG CELL.

ZOMG PC!!!!!

 

[AlphaWolf]

Hype is hype and this thread is stupid.

 

[scently]

Well why don't you wait till you have all the details, and hear developers opinion on it before you decide. Better yet why don't you wait and see the games before you decide. Best of all, you can go with either of the consoles and buy the other one later. Like if you feel the ps4 is better then buy it first and then if you still fancy the new xbox then you can buy it down the line.

 

[MrFox]

Perhaps there's more to the HDMI-IN than we know?

We already have PS3s duct taped together for GT5 multi-display so it's not a stupid idea to put an hdmi-in, it's not expensive. That would fit the comment that it's "like a super computer". But on the negative side, it might remain a niche, how many games would support it? Sony could pun that you need two 720 to have the same performance as a single PS4. At twice the price. That's not good publicity.

 

[Bagel seed]

I wish we could all have supercomputers. Instead we have short bus puters...

Let's make this thread again in 6 months if everything looks like BF3 uprezzed.

 

[dobwal]

I'll wait for the console launches and then draw my conclusion. Given that MS and Sony has faced off two times before with the winner on technical specs end up being the loser on units sold (until maybe last month), I seriously doubt perception pre-launch is any where near as important as the perception at launch and the first two years of a console's life.

Nevermind that the technical performance gap between consoles does little to convey the actual visual gap between ports. We are all aware that developers aim for parity and the biggest budget usually goes to the console that offers the greatest potential for sales.

I find it funny that the TFLOPs thrown around today for next gen consoles is practically less than the TFLOPs thrown by Sony and Nvidia when it came to the PS3.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, well, I'd say in particular a difference between a company like IBM and Nvidia, but what do I know.

 

[Proelite]

I find it funny that the TFLOPs thrown around today for next gen consoles is practically less than the TFLOPs thrown by Sony and Nvidia when it came to the PS3.

Neither Sony nor MS have started their marketing yet.

MS: Durango is capable of over 10 trillion calculations per second. Peak bandwidth is 170GB/S.

SONY: Orbis GPU rivals the AMD 8900 series, the system as a whole is 20x more powerful than the PS3.

 

[Bagel seed]

Remember this gem from 2005??

http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/05/20/e3-2005-microsofts-xbox-360-vs-sonys-playstation-3

Central Processing Unit (CPU) performance.
The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose processing power of the Cell.
Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) performance
The Xbox 360 GPU design is more flexible and it has more processing power than the PS3 GPU.
Memory System Bandwidth
The memory system bandwidth in Xbox 360 exceeds the PS3's by five times.

You know, I have a feeling neither MS or Sony will be talking about or comparing specs very much come E3. Both are the children of AMD now. We may even see Powered by AMD engraved on the faceplates

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What happened to Durango?

Considering we don't know what Durango is yet (no idea on GPU architecture, CPU architecture*, eDRAM setup, yada yada), the only sensible action regards criticising MS's lousy choices is wait until we actually know what the choices really were.

* Tell a lie, it was VGLeaked to be Jaguar, although there's some question over whether it's vanilla Jaguar or Raspberry Ripple Jaguar.

But the Durango spec *is* weird, like 2 PC's duck-taped together (is it duck tape or duct tape? that has always confused me ).

Duck Tape is a brand name of duct tape, chosen because of the similar sound, that has proven very effective as your confusion testifies to. You can use either, depending on whether you want to promote the particular brand or not; although, as with many trademarks, the name has become generalised. eg. People use 'hoover' to mean any vacuum cleaner, and 'biro' to mean any ball-point pen. Non-capitalised 'duck tape' is now just another name for duct tape.

 

[RobertR1]

I'll hold judgment on Durango and Orbis until official reveals and devs are able to freely speak about them (to a degree).

Pretty simple for me. I have a certain criteria it needs to hit. If it can't, then not for me.

MS can get an easy win from me whereas Sony would have to really work hard for my money. So if MS does drop the ball, I'll be a bit disappointed.

 

[zed]

With each new generation Power is becoming less and less meaningful (just like it is on the PC)
I dont know what either is gonna be like, the first I heard about them was last week,
But personally I cant imagine theyre gonna be that different, arent the most important parts designed by the same company.
Sure I can see a big difference happening if they were two completely different companies but the same one!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Sure I can see a big difference happening if they were two completely different companies but the same one!

Sure there can. IBM helped design both the Xenon and Cell CPUs. AMD helped design both the X360 and Wii/WiiU GPUs.

Granted this generation is going to be far more similar between Sony's and Microsoft's console. But if either company is willing to pay for it, AMD will be more than happy to make changes to the base CPU/GPU. Is it likely that either MS or Sony want to spend that much money in developement resources for that? Probably not, but you never know. Perhaps that initial developement cost will offset a potentially higher lifetime BOM cost for using some slightly specialized additions to the CPU/GPU.

I'm sure both companies are doing extensive cost analysis over lifetime BOM versus initial developement costs. Especially when you considering that lifetime BOM continuously goes up (as an overall cost) with number of consoles built combined with the effects of inflation. On the other hand developement costs are relatively fixed and once finished never go up. Of course the flip side is that that the more consoles you sell, the more you can potentially offset the lifetime BOM cost. But that's only true if you are making a profit on the hardware. Otherwise, if you sell the console at a loss you are compounding the lifetime BOM costs. Hence, we see neither company willing to follow a loss leader strategy anymore. Hence lowering the lifetime BOM is probably of more importance than lowering the initial development costs.

Delicate balancing act indeed.

Regards,
SB

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm not even sure what it is, but I'm so disappointed in it.