Volumetric lights and shadows this gen *spawn

[ultragpu]

Mod: Spawned from Uncharted 3 thread in response to a Naughty Dog quote...

In terms of the volumetric lighting, the way that light now spatially fills an area so a moving body - say, a character - passes in front of it the God rays that are cast around the character look like something we haven't seen before, even on current gen systems.

How is it they haven't seen god rays on current gen systems? Makes me wonder if that Volumetric lighting ND is using would be any different to the ones in Crysis, God of war 3 or others.

 

[nightshade]

Actually the 'God rays' in GOW3 and Crysis is just a 2D Post processing effect, not volumetric.
In a couple of Uncharted 3 videos (like the ship level) I've seen proper volumetric lighting as seen in Castlevania and Alan Wake (but the playing character doesnt interacts or affects the rays in either of these two games). I can tell that its volumetric cause you can see the light volumue even when the source is not on screen and perpendicular to your view...if it was a 2D effect like seen in GOW3 or any other of the countless games out there you wouldn't be seeing the light volume/shafts if the source isn't onscreen and facing towards you.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...if it was a 2D effect like seen in GOW3 or any other of the countless games out there you wouldn't be seeing the light volume/shafts if the source isn't onscreen and facing towards you.

You can just draw rays as transparent sprites, like GT3. The difference with volumetric rays is in shadowing, where the intensity of the rays should be progressive through the volume depending on how much of the ray is blocked or not, and in many games there's no need for that level of detail so rendering full volumetric lights is a waste of resources. Would be good in games like Alan Wake with confined light beams or in an atmospheric dungeon crawler, but mostly, for things like racers or city romps, a 2D effect is the more sensible choice.

 

[nightshade]

You can just draw rays as transparent sprites,

Yep, a lot of games do that as well.
Like Mass Effect, COD etc etc...in some the sprites disappear when you get close to them and in some like ME2 you can actually see the 2D plane when you get close to the sprites.

 

[ultragpu]

Actually the 'God rays' in GOW3 and Crysis is just a 2D Post processing effect, not volumetric.
In a couple of Uncharted 3 videos (like the ship level) I've seen proper volumetric lighting as seen in Castlevania and Alan Wake (but the playing character doesnt interacts or affects the rays in either of these two games). I can tell that its volumetric cause you can see the light volumue even when the source is not on screen and perpendicular to your view...if it was a 2D effect like seen in GOW3 or any other of the countless games out there you wouldn't be seeing the light volume/shafts if the source isn't onscreen and facing towards you.

Ah I see, have to watch the ship level again now.

You can just draw rays as transparent sprites, like GT3. The difference with volumetric rays is in shadowing, where the intensity of the rays should be progressive through the volume depending on how much of the ray is blocked or not, and in many games there's no need for that level of detail so rendering full volumetric lights is a waste of resources. Would be good in games like Alan Wake with confined light beams or in an atmospheric dungeon crawler, but mostly, for things like racers or city romps, a 2D effect is the more sensible choice.

I think the full volumetric lighting system would benefit UC3's desert levels such as visualizing a mirage or something.

Also just so I understand this correctly. If it's a fake volumetric lighting system then you wont be able to see those shaft on the AK47 right, since the light source is not on the screen in this shot?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Also just so I understand this correctly. If it's a fake volumetric lighting system then you wont be able to see those shaft on the AK47 right, since the light source is not on the screen in this shot?

Yes, although not because the light is off-screen. A simple 2D light shaft wouldn't know where to draw the volumetric shadows. This pic shows that the light source is being occluded along its length. Interestingly I can discern any volumetric shadowing from the arm in front, and I'm having trouble resolving the shadow direction to the apparent light position and normal shadow being cast. I'd have to see the clip in motion. It's a very good effect when done right (LBP2 looks most gorgeous with its volumetric lights) but overkill for many games. That ND can squeeze it into the already pretty full Uncharted graphics pipeline is testament to the powers!

 

[KKRT]

Actually the 'God rays' in GOW3 and Crysis is just a 2D Post processing effect, not volumetric.
In a couple of Uncharted 3 videos (like the ship level) I've seen proper volumetric lighting as seen in Castlevania and Alan Wake (but the playing character doesnt interacts or affects the rays in either of these two games). I can tell that its volumetric cause you can see the light volumue even when the source is not on screen and perpendicular to your view...if it was a 2D effect like seen in GOW3 or any other of the countless games out there you wouldn't be seeing the light volume/shafts if the source isn't onscreen and facing towards you.

What about light rays from save points in God of War 3 and what about shadows cast on particles in GT 5 [in 60 fps]

BTW there are movable rays on crashing plane sequence but when drake or other geometry passes them, they arent 'blocked', they have gone through from what i remember.

 

[L. Scofield]

How is it they haven't seen god rays on current gen systems? Makes me wonder if that Volumetric lighting ND is using would be any different to the ones in Crysis, God of war 3 or others.

Seems like they only play games on Sony platforms. Alan Wake does that type of volumetric lighting on a pretty large scale.

Actually the 'God rays' in GOW3 and Crysis is just a 2D Post processing effect, not volumetric.

Crysis (PC) does use proper volumetric lighting, mostly in the Alien level.

In a couple of Uncharted 3 videos (like the ship level) I've seen proper volumetric lighting as seen in Castlevania and Alan Wake (but the playing character doesnt interacts or affects the rays in either of these two games).

What? Alan Wake's volumetric lighting is 100% realtime, characters DO cast volumetric shadows all the time

 

[L. Scofield]

what about shadows cast on particles in GT 5 [in 60 fps]

http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/rays.jpg

That's not really volumetric lighting, rather particles that can receive shadows. I've seen that in Prince of Persia (2008), Crysis and MGS4 (and perhaps in a trailer for The Last Guardian).

 

[ultragpu]

Seems like they only play games on Sony platforms. Alan Wake does that type of volumetric lighting on a pretty large scale.
What? Alan Wake's volumetric lighting is 100% realtime, characters DO cast volumetric shadows all the time

Alan Wake's volumetric lighting does not cast dynamic light shaft, it only happens in the cutscenes which is of a much higher quality lighting model then the gameplay. And yes, I have AW on 360.

 

[L. Scofield]

Alan Wake's volumetric lighting does not cast dynamic light shaft, it only happens in the cutscenes which is of a much higher quality lighting model then the gameplay. And yes, I have AW on 360.

(very clear at 1:46-1:49)

(5:52 and after that)

What's that? Oh yeah, real time volumetric shadows...

Obviously OT, so mods, could you please spawn a new thread or move the posts to an appropiate existing one?

 

[nightshade]

You seem to have a misconception here, the game definitely has volumetric lights (no one said otherwise) however out of all the three videos you posted its very likely that all three of instances were the case of light shafts with 2D post processing as seen in other games. Its very obvious in the first video when you see the player look away from the camera in the opposite direction and you see no shadow volume being cast cause the light source isnt on screen. In the 2nd video if you look carefully you'll notice that wake's body doesn't cast the shadows at all. I'll give you another example from the game where the light is definitely volumetric but wake doesn't interacts with it at all...the lamp posts/checkpoints in the game.

 

[KKRT]

That's not really volumetric lighting, rather particles that can receive shadows. I've seen that in Prince of Persia (2008), Crysis and MGS4 (and perhaps in a trailer for The Last Guardian).

Yep, that's why i wrote that as 'shadow rays cast on particles' , but in U3 its seem to be doing the same, that they have shadows on particles.

 

[patsu]

I think I saw fake volumetric lighting in Ico yesterday too.
The ray from the giant dishes to the orbs on the main gate. I can see the light geometries from certain angle and position. Pretty cool !

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think PS2 did very well with light rays and other lighting effects. It's massive fillrate made transparency very easy to work with such that lit particles of all sorts could be freely thrown around.

 

[L. Scofield]

You seem to have a misconception here, the game definitely has volumetric lights (no one said otherwise) however out of all the three videos you posted its very likely that all three of instances were the case of light shafts with 2D post processing as seen in other games. Its very obvious in the first video when you see the player look away from the camera in the opposite direction and you see no shadow volume being cast cause the light source isnt on screen.

LOL, the volumetric shafts remain perfectly visible when he spins the camera. When it's a 2D post-process they ALWAYS disappear. It's also difficult to see the shadow of the player because when he spins the camera he's directly in front of it, blocking it from view.

In the 2nd video if you look carefully you'll notice that wake's body doesn't cast the shadows at all.

Yeah, it does. Here's a screengrab to show it:

Here the flare (the light source) is far out off-cam and yet the rays are perfectly visible, proving it's not a 2D post-process.

Also, in the third video, the white bright light constantly moves out of screen and again the shafts remain.

I'll give you another example from the game where the light is definitely volumetric but wake doesn't interacts with it at all...the lamp posts/checkpoints in the game.

That would only show that not ALL lights produce volumetric shadows, not the entire absence of them.

 

[Gitaroo]

is dead nation flash light volumetric? Seems to cut through fences very well.

 

[nightshade]

Yeah, it does. Here's a screengrab to show it:

Here the flare (the light source) is far out off-cam and yet the rays are perfectly visible, proving it's not a 2D post-process.

sorry I meant the 3rd video not the 2nd, Wake doesnt interacts with the light in the third one, and no I still dont see the volumes in the first videos when the light is offscreen.

That would only show that not ALL lights produce volumetric shadows, not the entire absence of them

you still arent getting it, what I'm saying is that the light CAN be volumetric but not interact with the player as well as it can be a post process effect that looks like a volume and interacts with the player. Alan Wake used both and so is the case with Castlevania

 

[L. Scofield]

sorry I meant the 3rd video not the 2nd, Wake doesnt interacts with the light in the third one, and no I still dont see the volumes in the first videos when the light is offscreen.

you still arent getting it, what I'm saying is that the light CAN be volumetric but not interact with the player as well as it can be a post process effect that looks like a volume and interacts with the player. Alan Wake used both and so is the case with Castlevania

Volumetric shadows achieved via a 2D post process effect disappear when the light source is off-screen. The second screen I posted shows the shadow perfectly visible while the source is off-screen. Simple logic tells us then that it IS a 3D effect.

A couple more for the flashlight:
(8:36)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4oFluYUNaI

And from the second video I posted:

The shadow of the car's brake stick caused by the flashlight, pointing away from the camera, showing it's 3D and not a 2D-postprocess.

And of course, there are those flashes everytime you remove the darkness from the enemies.

At the end of the day it's not what you say, but what you prove

 

[patsu]

Ah I see, have to watch the ship level again now.

I think the full volumetric lighting system would benefit UC3's desert levels such as visualizing a mirage or something.

Also just so I understand this correctly. If it's a fake volumetric lighting system then you wont be able to see those shaft on the AK47 right, since the light source is not on the screen in this shot?

NaughtyDog's effects stand out because they are not overly done, and they make you fight under the volumetric light source, with an enemy inside. They make sure the player sees the full effects over an extended period, plus the freaking boat was rocking back and forth.

I remember in the boat scene, the enemy and Nate also cast regular, and elongated shadows on the floor/wall while Nathan wrestle him with god ray around them.

Is the game still using MLAA or something else ? The game is also in 720p and Nathan's animation is still generated/blended on the fly right ?