Vista Opinions

radeonic, I think you should define quality when talking about PC and console games. Quality of graphics is one thing, butquality of gameplay, entertainment, or content are completely different. Each platform offers quality games, but for most types of games out there consoles just do it better.

Now to stay on topic. I will only get Vista if there is some dire need for me to get it. That would mean running it through Paralells on my Mac for that one or two applications I need. For gaming purposes I may be forced to get it, but then I need a game on the PC that will make me look into it for gaming purposes. WoW runs fine on OS X.

The features in Vista really don't impress me all that much. Aero glass or whatever it's called does indeed look better than the current XP GUI, but it is still a far cry from OS X's. The security looks like it will be better than XP, but it's only a matter of time before the flaws are found and the viruses and spyware comes spewing in like crazy. Are they going to fix the memory management in the thing compared to XP?
 
Having fiddled with the beta for a few days I think that despite the much vaunted new GUI it still looks, feels and plays like Windows. It still has the idiosyncratic feel of Windows. I can't see it replacing XP on my main PC in a hurry (if for no other reason than I get my license through my employer, and I doubt they'll be rolling out Vista on day 1!).

I'd like to go the OS X route on my desktop, but I also tend to self-build and I can't see Apple serving that constituency in the near future.
 
radeonic, I think you should define quality when talking about PC and console games. Quality of graphics is one thing, butquality of gameplay, entertainment, or content are completely different. Each platform offers quality games, but for most types of games out there consoles just do it better.
Really?
Can you name to me best TBS/RTS for consoles?
 
Really?
Can you name to me best TBS/RTS for consoles?
Advance Wars is awesome. Fire Emblem is a little harder to swallow but still manages to have a huge following.

Battallion Wars is good, it just isn't your typical RTS.

Realtime strategy is a problem on consoles. The control schemes aren't there. EA has this one LotR RTS game out for XBox 360 but there seems to be a consensus that it just doesn't work. So if you're saying that you need the PC for RTS games, I agree for the moment. And I absolutely see myself coming back to GalCiv 2 or Master of Orion or an X-Com game.

But note that Sony isn't as anal-retentive about mouse&keyboard support as Microsoft. Nintendo is going with a pointing device as well. So if EA (or someone else) decides to repeat the RTS-on-consoles experiment, there's a lot of potential now for finding an acceptable control scheme.
 
personally i prefer TBS (HMM, AoW type, Master of Magic anyone ? ;) ), and last shooter I played was farcry (2y ago) :D, so for me consoles are just something that small kids use to play things like jump&run . Surely consoles will become more importnat for gamers... but until people become able not only to play games, but to do their job also ... consoles can offer nothing to me.
Why bother with it? to play games? i can play games in Win too... for "cheap" gaming rig?!
50$ for a game is not cheap for me . Add 300$ + for something that can only be used for games... for same money i can get new PC with IGP (good for TBS/board games... and lets not forget http://www.reflexive.com/ .... :) ) .... i just don't see whats so great about consoles. Games exclusive to consoles !? So, what....

Back on topic - I'm not impressed with Vista, the whole idea that people should upgrade because of Aero is stupid IMHO. There are many other much important features which are needed.
 
I'm using the Vista Beta 2 right now, and I like it in many ways and dislike it in others.

Pros:
-- Stunning text recognition, must be about %99.8 accurate. With my tablet PC, this is simply fantastic!
-- Looks pretty, but more then that the XML based Windows Presentation Foundation makes it very easy to create stunning "wigit"-like applications, like Konfabulator or DesktopX only much more rich (and 3D!).
-- Very stable. For example, when explorer crashes it restarts without issues and nothing in the display is messed up. Again, when the video driver crashes it just restarts it.
-- Updates require a restart much less often, and no drivers require restart afaik.
-- Comes with Media Centre, voice recoginition and Tablet PC built in.
-- Fast and powerful search system, unlike XP.
-- GUI is very fast, thanks to hardware accerelation
-- System almost never locks up. Even when one app is going 100% CPU and leaking memory like mad, it still reserves resources for the OS to keep thing fairly responsive. This way, the Task Manager is always accessible, so you can shut down the offending app.
-- File paths are cool to work with, in that you can manipulate each folder part as a drop down list that shows folder's contents. Again, when typing in a path you get an auto-complete box that responds very fast.
-- You can alt-tab to your desktop, and the Win-tab is very cool.
-- Hovering over items in your taskbar, you get a small but live preview of the window. I mean live in that if there is something animated in the window (e.g. a video in WMP), you see it going in the preview. Alt-Tab and Win-Tab also do this.
-- Much nicer support for multiple keyboard formats. You can even colourise the icons for each format, so you can just glance at the start bar and see what's set.
-- Great little side bar wigit thing for the Tablet PC. It's a little thing that hangs on the side of the screen, moving out from just a sliver when you roll over it, and when you click it slides right out into a nice handwriting input box. When you're done, it just slides back! Very cool.
-- Updates are much more streamlined and backgroundable.
-- Gaming folder is sort of cool. You can see ratings, genres, preview pics, when you last played, etc...
-- Parental controls are very powerful. You can control how much time your kids use the computer, what hours they are allowed on, games they can play (including rating filters), websites they can visit, programs the can run, and to top it off it gives you activity reports to see exactly what they are doing.
-- WMP10 and IE7 are vast improvements over the previous versions.
-- DirectX 10 is very cool.
-- I'm sure side show would be awesome if I actually had a secondary display.
-- Windows Sidebar an the WPF enabled wigits that go with it are pretty cool, although I'm not using them right now.
-- In the system tray you can set it so that certain icons are never hidden by that little arrow thing.
-- All the graphics are very crisp and high resolution (256x256 on average by my guess).
-- It will have nicely scalable DPI settings, but afaik right now it has the same crap as XP.
-- In the file explorer you get nice previews of folder and file contents in their respective icons, which can be scaled in size from very small to excessively large (for the visually impared I guess, or just close inspection).

Cons:
-- Network manager is simply fubar. When you save networks, you can't remove them and the interface is confusing. This should be fixed in the final version though.
-- They tried to make the Control Panel less confusing, but I feel they accomplished the opposite. There are too many categories with too many side-options and too many items with too many sub-options. It's something of a guessing game to find the specific thing you want. If they had a tree view, so I could see all the items efficently it would be ideal. Fortunitly, you can still switch to classic view.
-- The File Explorer/My Computer can be a bit too cluttered sometimes. Normally, you have a search bar, address bar, favorite locations pane, properties pane and other options all crammed in there, and this is fine unless you shrink the window real small. However, as soon as you open the file tree, it gets a bit overwhelming. Not only that but the file tree is really crammed in there. If they made it replace the favorities pane when opened, it would be much nicer.
-- Slow as molasses, but that's just the beta aspect of it really. I'm sure it will be fixed.
-- Program "warnings" that ask you to allow some program to access some system setting, file or whatever come up way too often and serve little purpose. They never ask for a password, so the average idiot will pay no heed. They come up for things like Windows Updates, Spyware/Virus scanner updates, just looking at your system devices, changing folder permissions, installing any program that isn't from a "trusted" source as indicated in your internet security settings or by their MS security certificate, opening the task manager, and countless other even more trivial things. It's just annoying. Worst of all, when it comes up it blocks out the rest of the screen until you deal with it.
-- The "shut down" button doesn't actually shut the computer down, but puts it in standby. To actually shut down you have to go into a side menu.
 
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Except for the new presentation (UI/DX10) and interface (communication) models and the DRM, there isn't much of the "new" Vista left by now. Everything else is just plain old XP.

The main reasons you might want or need Vista would be the new UI and an agressive push from Microsoft to have many applications (games) that need it to run. Which they will definitely try, nothing is as good for their bottom line as the introduction of a new OS upgrade.

Anyway, we have more than a year left to wonder. First, they would release the Vista Basic Home Edition before christmas this year, which turned into simply XP Home with Aero. They said about a month ago that the official shipping date would be "in the first half next year", and Steve Ballmer announced a week later that it "would be done when it's done".

That makes it by the end of next year, soonest.
 
-- File paths are cool to work with, in that you can manipulate each folder part as a drop down list that shows folder's contents. Again, when typing in a path you get an auto-complete box that responds very fast.
-- Hovering over items in your taskbar, you get a small but live preview of the window. I mean live in that if there is something animated in the window (e.g. a video in WMP), you see it going in the preview. Alt-Tab and Win-Tab also do this.
-- Updates are much more streamlined and backgroundable.
-- Gaming folder is sort of cool. You can see ratings, genres, preview pics, when you last played, etc...
-- Parental controls are very powerful. You can control how much time your kids use the computer, what hours they are allowed on, games they can play (including rating filters), websites they can visit, programs the can run, and to top it off it gives you activity reports to see exactly what they are doing.
-- WMP10 and IE7 are vast improvements over the previous versions.
-- DirectX 10 is very cool.
-- I'm sure side show would be awesome if I actually had a secondary display.
-- Windows Sidebar an the WPF enabled wigits that go with it are pretty cool, although I'm not using them right now.
-- All the graphics are very crisp and high resolution (256x256 on average by my guess).
-- It will have nicely scalable DPI settings, but afaik right now it has the same crap as XP.
And then you wonder why:

-- Slow as molasses, but that's just the beta aspect of it really. I'm sure it will be fixed.
That's simply the enormous amount of stuff running in the background all the time to make all that possible. Yes, you really need to shell out all that money for a high-end PC to have all that eye candy. Actually doing any work on it is second rated, for most users. Or so they believe.

Not that there is any other reason for your average office worker to buy a faster computer. Format C:, reinstall Windows and you just saved all that money! I know some large multinationals where they still use 800 Mhz Pentium PC's with Windows NT. And it works.



And even with XP, I despise the balloons, not being able to access anything else when there is an "important" modal dialog shown, or all the other "idiot-proof" features, or the things that "really require your attention right now, so you know we take interest".

-- Program "warnings" that ask you to allow some program to access some system setting, file or whatever come up way too often and serve little purpose. They never ask for a password, so the average idiot will pay no heed. They come up for things like Windows Updates, Spyware/Virus scanner updates, just looking at your system devices, changing folder permissions, installing any program that isn't from a "trusted" source as indicated in your internet security settings or by their MS security certificate, opening the task manager, and countless other even more trivial things. It's just annoying. Worst of all, when it comes up it blocks out the rest of the screen until you deal with it.
-- The "shut down" button doesn't actually shut the computer down, but puts it in standby. To actually shut down you have to go into a side menu.
Those would irritate me no end.


But, YMMV, and if you want to buy a yummy new PC, you would like to see all the new tricks it can do.
 
Well there is a very large amount of reporting, logging and whatnot going on in the background. I've read about people getting considerable speed-ups by disabling all that, but that would defeat the purpose of a beta, wouldn't it?

Plus, the majority of the visual enhancements are GPU centric, which doesn't explain the slowdown. The nice thing with having the GUI offloaded on the GPU, is that although your framerate might drop in intense situations, the programs still run at full speed. In this case, I'm finding that the programs are going slow, not the GUI. That's blazingly fast, so it couldn't be due to the issues you speak of, but other things.

Moreover, when it does slow down I see the HD light going solid. Afaik, the GPU doesn't usually use the HD for rendering. :LOL: It's not paging either, because after I open a program (when the excessive slowness usually happens), all the other ones are still snappy. Specifically, it sometimes takes a minute for something as simple as the control panel or my computer to open, although more usually it's with things like IE and WMP. System startup takes at least 5 minutes itself. Overall, it would seem to me that what's happening is just logs and such being written to the HD, not the enhanced visuals that cause the slowdown.

Also, I have a Geforce 6600 with 128MB of VRAM, so it should be able to handle Vista just fine.
 
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Well, yes, that's why they use hardware acceleration for the graphics. But they need a massive bandwidth (to HD as well) and loads of processing power to be ready to show you all those nifty things if you stop moving the mouse. And it would have to respond fast, so they need to be prepared in advance. Gather very much data and calculate all the possibilites, to be able to show the 0.01% actually needed, fast!

But on the other hand, if I would eliminate all those irritating things that I don't want and only get in the way, what would be left? XP, with two new subsystems and better DRM.

That's why I said YMMV: not everyone appreciates the same things. I don't fit the main profile.
 
98lite. :devilish:

By the way, let me say for the 323rd time, that I can't stand not having a DirectX upgrade for XP. What an obvious tactic there.
 
98lite. :devilish:

By the way, let me say for the 323rd time, that I can't stand not having a DirectX upgrade for XP. What an obvious tactic there.

Now this is something I need help with... Last I checked, D3D10 was doing things that weren't physically possible within the kernel framework of NT5. Meaning that the featureset being targetted simply wasn't even possible unless a driver and kernel rewrite happened...

So which should we ask for? Features that fit within the limits of software, or features that fit within the limits of the hardware? I'd typically ask for the latter...
 
Now this is something I need help with... Last I checked, D3D10 was doing things that weren't physically possible within the kernel framework of NT5. Meaning that the featureset being targetted simply wasn't even possible unless a driver and kernel rewrite happened...

So which should we ask for? Features that fit within the limits of software, or features that fit within the limits of the hardware? I'd typically ask for the latter...
XP SP 2.
 
Maybe SP3? ;)

What about the driver model? New service pack that also requires all new video drivers? Dunno, just thinking out loud.
 
Maybe SP3? ;)

What about the driver model? New service pack that also requires all new video drivers? Dunno, just thinking out loud.
Why not? They have build all the stuff they need.

But it wouldn't earn them many millions of dollars if they did that.
 
I think they designed DX10 purposefully to obsolete XP.

DX8 will run on Windows 95. You start with no DirectX on that OS and you can update to 2001 or so tech. I have a REALLY hard time believing that DX10 is so magical that it is totally impossible to run on XP. If they gave a shit about backwards compatibility that is. Why would they? As said, it doesn't make them any money. In fact, it would undoubtely cost them a lot of money from development and loss of sales.
 
Hey, I was thinking, one of the few things that leaps out at me when I consider what WIndows needs, is a download manager. A real, logging, firewall, would be nice, too. Anybody heard whether IE 7 or vista include a download manager? Theose floating download windows are so... 1995... ^^;
 
Hey, I was thinking, one of the few things that leaps out at me when I consider what WIndows needs, is a download manager. A real, logging, firewall, would be nice, too. Anybody heard whether IE 7 or vista include a download manager? Theose floating download windows are so... 1995... ^^;

What do you mean by download manager? One that creates extra connections on a server to increase download speed? Those are real pains for server ownsers, especially those who have to limit slots on a server. Just something to possibly pause a download or list what's running all in one window would be okay though.

Also, they could NEVER get away with it, and they could NEVER get away with a fully featured Firewall either.

People complain about some things about Windows, but yet many of the reason for it having limited extras is because its Windows and MS would get sued to high heaven (even more than right now) if they released such products with their OS.
 
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