Vista == Mojave == Wow?

Whoopidy doo! MS' marketing department out-smarted a bunch of half-wits that have no clue what Vista looks like :rolleyes:

I'd like to see them repeat the test with people that have actually used Vista, and dislike it. I'm sure SP1 would be enough to sway some people (assuming they had only tried Vista prior to SP1), but nowhere near a majority, I'd guess.

I dislike Vista because of its bloat, useless eyecandy (imho), poor software compatibility, lack of device drivers, UAC, integrated crapware such as Defender and associated "security" (cr)applets, and vastly reduced performance compared to XP in many applications (particularly games).
 
I like Vista because 1.) I see no bloat. 2.) The visual changes make a world of difference in ease of use in some areas, especially true when managing my music folders. 3.) No software compatibility issues. 3.) Haven't had a single driver issue. 4.) UAC can be disabled. 5.) So can Defender and other such services. 6.) No performance issues.

But hey, it's fun to always bash every single thing Microsoft does. They're an evil company who hasn't made a good product ever. Everything they do wrong and they've certainly never been a victim of baseless product bashing trends.

You missed the point though Shaidar so maybe I should forgive you. It's exactly the half-wits Microsoft has to out smart. It's idiots who lurk forums only to pop up and bash Vista without having any real use with it. Their experience comes down to trying it on the $399 clearance laptop at Best Buy and determining it's the worst piece of software to every exist. Of course I have no hope in Microsoft's marketing department. They can't turn a ordinary product into the next mega trend like some other popular company I've heard about.
 
Wow thats pretty harsh Skyring. I am not a fan of Vista because of its bloat mainly and sluggishness and I used it on the specs indicated below! I dont see why it needs that much disk space to just install and I really fail to see what features it brings to the table over good old XP.
 
They could certainly make Vista a lot more efficient, and give better options for installing trimmed down versions. Also it is a shame that a lot of older hardware doesn't work on it, and made it more difficult and I presume expensive to get drivers verified - we in fact do have hardware that isn't supported, among which our Epson 1200 scanner which otherwise works great and I still hook it up often to my XP laptop.

This is the age of the VMWare image though, and it will be interesting to see if I could for instance run an XP image on the Vista machine and have the scanner run in that.
 
It does support every device you could likely find useful as long as there is a driver for it. Now who's job is it to provide the driver? Traditionally I thought that fell into the hands of the device manufacturer but I guess I'm wrong here. I mean why in the world would the people who made the device have a crazy responsibility to write a driver to make it work on a new OS? The scanner issue, and others like it, are a result of the manufacturing company no longer supporting the device. It's not Microsoft's fault. Does the responsibility of specifically adding support (aka write a driver) fall into their hands? I don't think so. That's really a rather ridiculous idea. One that I can only assume has grown out of XP being the standard OS for so long.

I have no clue about Vista sluggishness either. A quick search will say I'm very anti-sluggish. In fact in my experience its much more responsive than XP ever was. It also maintains its relative performance much longer. I regularly formatted XP about every six months simply because with even minimal added programs it became slow over time. Now Vista isn't the ultimate solution to this, I can easily tell the difference between a new and old Vista installation but the difference isn't nearly as great.

I do agree with the idea of a easily way to customize your installation options. I would love to be able to simply unmark Calendar, DVD Maker, Contacts, Windows Mail, and the numerous other useless (IMO) programs that are included. I do think this is a major fault with Vista. If someone needed them a simple reminder of "You currently have no program able to handle this but on your Vista disc a program you choose not to install that can handle this is included." Then again someone would cry monopoly because Microsoft advertises their solution (OMG CALL THE EU) on their OS (HOLY SHIT!) and not other companies as well.

But meh, this won't change anything. Microsoft does a lot wrong with Vista but they also do a lot right in my experience.
 
I think you must be doing something wrong Skrying and I do not mean that in a belittling negatory way because on my 3 year old laptop I have XP 32 bit on it that I just nLited and tweaked once and have not changed it since. Its absolutely not sluggish! Sure maybe the performance degradation issue was there prior to SP2 because I remember saying that same thing myself but after SP2 it just was not the case for me. I installed all kinds of software from video editing to gaming to stuff needed for school assignments to tools I need as a Java developer by trade and with just 2 gb of ram and a 3.4 P4 it never skipped a beat.

And I think vLite may be the tool that you need to remove those apps you dont use Skyring. Have you looked in to that?

Cheers!
 
Sigh... it certainly happens on XP. It's interesting though that you find Vista sluggish and I don't at all. There's so many varying opinions on that matter across the web, from people I trust, that I'm going to say it's a toss up. I would personally characterize XP's issue more as hiccups, it'll skip when you start using many programs at once and as the amount of memory you're consuming increases switching programs (especially those which use large amounts of memory themselves) would take a increasingly longer amount of time. Vista handles that situation much better and when I have say one program using 600MB and 5 others using anywhere from 50MB to 250MB the experience is much better.

As for vLite, I do use that. My install is missing nearly all of those. But I was talking about a Microsoft side solution. That would have much better integration. If you decide later on that you need one of those programs it's a bit of a pain in the ass to get it back. Not impossible but it's something I'd figure they would have considered during the development process.
 
I had XP running for years only rebooting about 1 time every 2 months hibernating otherwise and found very little slowdown...

Of course that was in my vehicle :)
 
I like Vista because 1.) I see no bloat. 2.) The visual changes make a world of difference in ease of use in some areas, especially true when managing my music folders. 3.) No software compatibility issues. 3.) Haven't had a single driver issue. 4.) UAC can be disabled. 5.) So can Defender and other such services. 6.) No performance issues.

But hey, it's fun to always bash every single thing Microsoft does. They're an evil company who hasn't made a good product ever. Everything they do wrong and they've certainly never been a victim of baseless product bashing trends.

You missed the point though Shaidar so maybe I should forgive you. It's exactly the half-wits Microsoft has to out smart. It's idiots who lurk forums only to pop up and bash Vista without having any real use with it. Their experience comes down to trying it on the $399 clearance laptop at Best Buy and determining it's the worst piece of software to every exist. Of course I have no hope in Microsoft's marketing department. They can't turn a ordinary product into the next mega trend like some other popular company I've heard about.

You're right Skyring, it's not like I form my opinions based on experience as a long-time PC technician and consultant, or anything.

Oh, wait...

You have no idea how many Fister systems I've had the unfortunate displeasure of servicing since its release. Nor how many customers I've convinced to downgrade to XP, nor how many of them have thanked me for it.

I have no problem with people that like Vista. I do have a problem with those that would insinuate anyone that dislikes it is some rabid anti-MS fanboy.
 
I just reread that article...so how did the people participating in that 'study' not realize that that was Vista?

Did they change the UI totally? Did they make another service pack and install it? I just dont get it...perhaps someone smarter than me will comment and open my eyes to that. Cuz if it was me I dont think I would fall for it lol.
 
I like the point they made about "The biggest problem left with Vista is perception"...

we in fact do have hardware that isn't supported, among which our Epson 1200 scanner which otherwise works great and I still hook it up often to my XP laptop.
The last published driver update for the Epson 1200U Scanner was Feburary of 2002; it actually came out somewhere around '98-'99.

So, I have to ask, where is the line on backwards-compatible expectations drawn? Is it rational to expect a piece of hardware from a decade ago to work in a brand new operating system? I suppose you can make that argument for very specific types of hardware that have either no replacement or are so specialized that it makes no monetary sense to replace it. But a scanner is not that kind of equipment; even Epson hasn't supported that model for several years...

The same thing goes for "software compatibility". I've had zero software compatibility issues, but perhaps it's because I'm not trying to use a piece of software written in 1992 for Windows For Workgroups 3.11?

And the same goes for "OMG it uses memory and harddrive space!!!". Yes, it uses memory for disk cache. Yes, it uses extra drive space for "shadow copies" of not only operating system files but even previous versions of your personal documents. But somehow, I really didn't miss the 7GB of space on my 750GB drive at home; perhaps I'm not sensitive enough?

There are things that can be better with Vista; I very much like the idea of making it far more "modular" so I don't have to install every single accessory app it thinks I need. UAC was a good concept, but was very poorly implemented. And I'm still waiting for the day when a driver install really doesn't need a reboot -- I guess we are getting closer, but we're still not there yet.

I still think there is a very vocal segment of the population who hates Microsoft no matter what. Vista could be the second coming of Christ and there would be a dozen forums dedicated to telling everyone how CentOS is better because it doesn't have dependencies on religious fiction ;)

Seriously, operating systems are a religion to some people. Apple is kicking ass and taking names, which means they're doing something right. And while Vista may not be popular with all the fanboys, it's still a "good" OS.
 
You're right Skyring, it's not like I form my opinions based on experience as a long-time PC technician and consultant, or anything.

Oh, wait...

You have no idea how many Fister systems I've had the unfortunate displeasure of servicing since its release. Nor how many customers I've convinced to downgrade to XP, nor how many of them have thanked me for it.

I have no problem with people that like Vista. I do have a problem with those that would insinuate anyone that dislikes it is some rabid anti-MS fanboy.

You don't get an equal amount of XP systems? :rolleyes: Fact is depending on where and how you're servicing them you'll be getting the systems for a myriad of reasons not directly related to the OS but instead how people use said OS incorrectly. Which in that case Vista and XP are equally vulnerable to people without a clue as to what they're doing. Your experience as a PC technician or "consultant" really donesn't matter to me. Tons of other people with the same or equal experience disagree. So, I'm wondering why everyone is right and everyone is wrong over the same issue. I hope you understand my confusion...

I just reread that article...so how did the people participating in that 'study' not realize that that was Vista?

Did they change the UI totally? Did they make another service pack and install it? I just dont get it...perhaps someone smarter than me will comment and open my eyes to that. Cuz if it was me I dont think I would fall for it lol.

No clue, I didn't even read the article. Not really my point personally. There are a number of the forum viewing masses (at other places, I stick to B3D because as much as I disagree with Shaidar I much rather read his posts than TONS of others) who bash Vista having zero experience with it. Going on what they've only read from some blog or other forum post that is equally baseless. It's like me picking out flaws with OSX when I have no long term experience with it.
 
So, I have to ask, where is the line on backwards-compatible expectations drawn? Is it rational to expect a piece of hardware from a decade ago to work in a brand new operating system? I suppose you can make that argument for very specific types of hardware that have either no replacement or are so specialized that it makes no monetary sense to replace it. But a scanner is not that kind of equipment; even Epson hasn't supported that model for several years...

I think even just using a scanner (or printer) as an example is flawed. On every new Windows version scanners (and to a lesser extent printers) always fall by the wayside. I remember getting a near-brand new scanner from a friend because when he upgraded to XP that thing stopped working and there were no further updates in sight.

On the other hand, you can't (and MS can't) use that argument, or at least apply use it to hand-wave all backwards compatibility issues. It makes bugger all difference to me that Vista now supports 77.000 pieces of hardware and runs 98 of the top 100 enterprise applications because if it doesn't run this particular application I use or work with this particular hardware part then it's all for naught.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. Personally I think it's high time MS rebooted the whole Windows line like they did with the original NT where they said: keep using Windows 3.1 if you must but here's Windows NT 3.1 if you want to sample the future; backwards compatiblity be damned. But that's me. If your company absolutely needs a DOS application to make money (and it doesn't want to train its employees on VMs) then you can't really fault them for dissing Vista (or whatever) but you can, as you did, point and laugh at their outdated applications/hardware.

The same thing goes for "software compatibility". I've had zero software compatibility issues, but perhaps it's because I'm not trying to use a piece of software written in 1992 for Windows For Workgroups 3.11?

I've been using Vista (64) roughly since March and exclusively with SP1 and I've had software compatibility problems. The latest of which was just yesterday when I tried reinstalling MGS2, which is a Feb 2003 game. Game goes black because Vista no longer has hardware sound acceleration. Long story short, I had to install the (once illegal, now legal) tweaked Creative Alchemy drivers because my lappy has a Realtek HD chip. This was actually my first compatibility problem with a game, in this respect Vista is impressive, especially when I compare it to NT4 and 2000. An application example: WinRAR's file properties Archive sheet doesn't work on Vista 64. Here's another: Visual Studio 2005 craps out when I create a new solution. Googling MS's own forums I saw dumbstruck MS employees. Finally a solution: have to change every single Registry hive and manually add the Administrator account (yes I'm forcing administrator, I'm not a 10 year old) to the full permissions for it to work. Yes, that's after installing the Vista specific fix for VS2005. I could go on.

And the same goes for "OMG it uses memory and harddrive space!!!". Yes, it uses memory for disk cache. Yes, it uses extra drive space for "shadow copies" of not only operating system files but even previous versions of your personal documents. But somehow, I really didn't miss the 7GB of space on my 750GB drive at home; perhaps I'm not sensitive enough?

7GB? 750GB? My lappy has a 232gb (real ones) drive. Right now the Windows folder is using 14.7GB (and I made a point to delete all previous System Restore backups before counting this). That's just the \Windows folder. I know Vista has stuff in \ProgramData and a bunch of other folders. Since it's a lappy with 3gb of ram include another 3gb for the page file and another 3 for the hybernate file. And worst of all is this is a vLited installation with SP1 already "slipstreamed". There are no backed-up pre-SP1 files here and I removed Speech Support (650mb), Tablet Support (700mb) and Language Files (1gb) from the installation media. If I hadn't I suppose I'd be in 30gb land right about now.

There are things that can be better with Vista; I very much like the idea of making it far more "modular" so I don't have to install every single accessory app it thinks I need.

I'd agree if there was actually an end-user benefit. They componetised Vista to allow easier production of more SKUs, that's all. Thank goodness for nLite and vLite.

UAC was a good concept, but was very poorly implemented. And I'm still waiting for the day when a driver install really doesn't need a reboot -- I guess we are getting closer, but we're still not there yet.

Nevermind drivers, whatever happened to no (or at least much fewer) reboots after Windows updates?

Seriously, operating systems are a religion to some people. Apple is kicking ass and taking names, which means they're doing something right. And while Vista may not be popular with all the fanboys, it's still a "good" OS.

Despite my criticisms above, I actually consider it a pretty good OS once you know how to workaround some of the annoyances (Force admin - it makes Vista a lot more usable as long as you know what you're doing). It has a few must-have features like pervasive instant search, file transfer dialogue boxes with the damn remaining time on the title, not a stupid % like in XP (seems like a tiny change but what does it mean to me that a file is 50% done? If it's a small file that's great but if it's a 2gb file looking at the taskbar tells me nothing at all - in vista a quick glance tells me immediately if I should get myself a cup of tea); another huge time savers are saved searches and stacking. So I'm not downgrading to XP on my lappy. OTOH, my desktop is never getting Vista. That's my games machine and Vista is too damn bloated for that. Might as well save some money and go directly for Vienna, a beta is bound to be around the corner right?
 
here's the only experience I had with Vista : log in and log out, on a locked down empty desktop which only purpose are Internet Exploder, Office and connecting to X11 and RDP servers. Damn that was slow with a lot of hard disk activity, on brand new PCs (core2duo with 2GB). exactly like the old K6s with NT4 (with their low ram and slow ass HDD) which served the same task.

That's a bit ridiculous to choke on an empty desktop! never mind the cost of Vista Business for such a limited use.
 
You don't get an equal amount of XP systems? :rolleyes: Fact is depending on where and how you're servicing them you'll be getting the systems for a myriad of reasons not directly related to the OS but instead how people use said OS incorrectly. Which in that case Vista and XP are equally vulnerable to people without a clue as to what they're doing. Your experience as a PC technician or "consultant" really donesn't matter to me. Tons of other people with the same or equal experience disagree. So, I'm wondering why everyone is right and everyone is wrong over the same issue. I hope you understand my confusion...

No clue, I didn't even read the article. Not really my point personally. There are a number of the forum viewing masses (at other places, I stick to B3D because as much as I disagree with Shaidar I much rather read his posts than TONS of others) who bash Vista having zero experience with it. Going on what they've only read from some blog or other forum post that is equally baseless. It's like me picking out flaws with OSX when I have no long term experience with it.

Skyring, as I said, I have no problem with people that enjoy Vista. There really are some great features. It's just not my cup of tea is all. Post-SP1 has made my life easier, but it's still nowhere near as user-friendly as XP, IMHO, and in the majority of my customers'/end-users' experience. I just don't meet many "average Joes" that like Vista after having used it. That's not to say there aren't plenty of people out there that like it, obviously that's not the case.

The complaints I listed previously are daily complaints I have observed, and have heard from my customers. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there. Chances are you have a pretty fast system. Not everyone can afford a nice dual/quad-core rig with a discrete graphics card and at least 2GB RAM (3-4 being optimal).

And I do of course service more XP systems than Vista, but that's just a matter of installed-base.
 
I just reread that article...so how did the people participating in that 'study' not realize that that was Vista?

Did they change the UI totally? Did they make another service pack and install it? I just dont get it...perhaps someone smarter than me will comment and open my eyes to that. Cuz if it was me I dont think I would fall for it lol.

They didn't realize it was Vista because they'd never seen Vista before, and/or no-doubt the GUI had been changed to hide the evidence.
 
7GB? 750GB? My lappy has a 232gb (real ones) drive. Right now the Windows folder is using 14.7GB (and I made a point to delete all previous System Restore backups before counting this). That's just the \Windows folder. I know Vista has stuff in \ProgramData and a bunch of other folders. Since it's a lappy with 3gb of ram include another 3gb for the page file and another 3 for the hybernate file. And worst of all is this is a vLited installation with SP1 already "slipstreamed". There are no backed-up pre-SP1 files here and I removed Speech Support (650mb), Tablet Support (700mb) and Language Files (1gb) from the installation media. If I hadn't I suppose I'd be in 30gb land right about now.

My full blown Vista Ultimate 64bit OS install with SP1 with nothing cleaned from the main drive, other than swap and hibernate file moved to a different drive, is using 15.2 Gigs. I can't see it ever getting up to 30gb unless you're saving your VS Projects and other source code to that drive as well.
 
Skyring, as I said, I have no problem with people that enjoy Vista. There really are some great features. It's just not my cup of tea is all. Post-SP1 has made my life easier, but it's still nowhere near as user-friendly as XP, IMHO, and in the majority of my customers'/end-users' experience. I just don't meet many "average Joes" that like Vista after having used it. That's not to say there aren't plenty of people out there that like it, obviously that's not the case.

The complaints I listed previously are daily complaints I have observed, and have heard from my customers. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there. Chances are you have a pretty fast system. Not everyone can afford a nice dual/quad-core rig with a discrete graphics card and at least 2GB RAM (3-4 being optimal).

And I do of course service more XP systems than Vista, but that's just a matter of installed-base.

Even $400 laptops these day ship with dual cores and 2GB of memory. Discrete graphics really isn't a big deal either, experience with Aero is about equal even on a Intel X3100. I've heard all the same about XP, I would go on to guess you have as well. You know why Vista isn't as "user friendly" as XP? Because they already know all the ins and outs of XP, they've been using it for years now. This might be a holy shit moment for you... but people tend to know something they've used for years better than something they haven't. It's like Office 2007 compared to earlier versions. 2007 is WORLDS better, if you were to learn both at the same time you'd fine 2007 incredibly better from a user perspective. But people already know the old system so of course they're going to complain "OH GOD WHY MUST I LEARN SOMETHING NEW." Maybe that's it. Microsoft should never release a new OS. Shit is just to hard to learn.

Honestly I wish they would just start over. But they can't, kind of sad. Windows market ownage will likely cause it's own shrink.
 
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