Use of extra memory resources in Mid-Gen Console Upgrades? *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by MrFox, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,995
    It's 9GB vs 5.5GB, which is important, but it's certainly not 12 vs 5.
     
    Pixel and Globalisateur like this.
  2. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,641
    Likes Received:
    1,450

    9 vs 5. Not 5.5.

    Too be pedantic...

    But yeah I meant the total VRAM is 12GB I'm aware 3GB is reserved for OS.
     
  3. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,995
    Don't make me use my super powers.
     
    Globalisateur likes this.
  4. DuckThor Evil

    DuckThor Evil Anas platyrhynchos
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    5,880
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    Finland
    PS4 Pro has more memory for games than the base PS4, so the 5.5GB is correct if I remember correctly.
     
    Pixel likes this.
  5. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,979
    Likes Received:
    4,065
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    No PS4 Pro has 5,5 Gb of memory available to the Dev.
     
    Pixel likes this.
  6. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,460
    Likes Received:
    3,126
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    I thought Scorpio was 8 GB for developers? AFAIK they increased the reserve for the OS so they could do everything X1 can do, but with 4K overlays and 4K capture buffers with no concerns.

    I mean for my money I'd say hack that multitasking stuff back to 2 GB (if that) and you're laughing. Other than friends and chat, achievements, and the necessary video capture buffers, how often do people actually use other functionality and would it impact on their console choice if it wasn't there?
     
  7. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,995
    It was, but they raised it to 9GB some time ago. I think this is pretty much official.
     
    Grall and function like this.
  8. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,460
    Likes Received:
    3,126
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    Cool, I must have missed that.

    So if Scorpio now has the same reserve as the X1, does that mean a reduction in the X1 reserve is incoming, or are they planning on supporting the same resolution dash / capture etc on the 4K X1S? And how much wasted memory does that mean the X1 (none S) is going to be living with...?
     
    milk likes this.
  9. mpg1

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    I'm not sure if it's going be "wasted":

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-five-ways-your-existing-games-will-be-better

     
    RootKit likes this.
  10. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,460
    Likes Received:
    3,126
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    I thought the file system caching was for unused game memory on the Scorpio? But I could be 'membering wrong (though that quote doesn't indicate it).

    I'm talking about if X1 had the same system reserve as X1S and X1X (which were both 3GB for 4K reasons) then it would have unused system reserve space. Now you possibly could use that as additional cache so X1 loaded faster than X1S, but that's not what MS were talking about with their X1X BC caching example in unused game memory.
     
  11. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,641
    Likes Received:
    1,450

    Source?

    I thought that was just confusion over the .5GB thats been haggled over now being truly freed up on Pro?

    Seems odd that Pro and Ps4 would have any different memory allocation with the same amount of memory in both. Why not open it on PS4 too?
     
    Goodtwin likes this.
  12. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,995
    "We felt games needed a little more memory — about 10 percent more — so we added a gigabyte of slow, conventional DRAM to the console," said Mark Cerny, lead system architect for the PS4, in a lengthy interview with Digital Foundry. The extra DRAM is different from the console’s existing 8 GB of GDDR5 graphics memory; it’s not meant to be used for games.

    Cerny explained that the current PS4 uses part of its fast GDDR5 RAM for multitasking, keeping nongaming apps like Netflix in memory to allow for quick switching between a game and something else. That’s not the best use of the graphics RAM, which is why Sony added the slower DDR3 memory to the PS4 Pro.

    "On PS4 Pro, we do things differently, when you stop using Netflix, we move it to the slow, conventional gigabyte of DRAM," Cerny told Digital Foundry. "Using that strategy frees up almost one gigabyte of the eight gigabytes of GDDR5."

    Half of the freed-up RAM is available to game developers, boosting the total amount to 5.5 GB.
     
    #12 MrFox, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2017
  13. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,641
    Likes Received:
    1,450
    I didn't know (or had forgot, I dont know if I knew), sue me *shrug*. Does seem like it's been covered before, months ago amidst everything else.

    Wonder why they didn't give the "almost " whole GB they claimed to save back. PS4 Pro could likely use it more so than PS4. Oh well. Cool strategy, wonder if consoles can do this in the future more.

    How does the busses work for this?

    So 9 vs 5.5. Apparently. Pro vs X1X.
     
  14. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,995
    I called this on launch....
    PS4 Pro Official Specifications (Codename NEO)

    The memory is on the south bridge, 16bits ddr3, and the SB connects to the main SoC through pcie x4 I think.
    It's slow enough than on the Pro, switching between the game and netflix, there is about 1 second delay for the paging which wasn't there on the standard ps4. Saying "suspending application". Probably not easy to do much more than 1GB without causing annoyances.
     
    #14 MrFox, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2017
  15. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,460
    Likes Received:
    3,126
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    If you think about the memory required for potentially quadrupling buffer sizes, that would apply to the dash as well as games. So increasing memory for the dash by the same amount as for games is reasonable IMO.

    There will be a minimum amount of fast memory Sony need for the dash to operate correctly (meaning to maintain similar operation to the base unit).

    Given Sony's cost and capability goals, doubling to 16GB was unnecessary and would have been hugely wasteful. I think creating a 1GB ram cache for the dash was a really sensible move. There's something about putting all your phone level dashboard shit in 320GB/s 384-bit GDDR5 that just .... irritates me.
     
    #15 function, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
    milk likes this.
  16. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,592
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Location:
    France
    Indeed. Base PS4 had already 256MB of slow ram for some network work. They increased it to 1GB on Pro in order to allocate more fast ram for Pro games. We can see there is a trend of using slow ram for OS operations and keep the fast ram for games.

    I think they are going to continue to use a slow memory pool on PS5, maybe even for all OS processes. Like 32GB fast ram only for games and 8GB slow ram for OS / dash / network etc. But I am not sure if it's technically possible to completely isolate things like this. But that would be ideal, I think. Particularly if they use only low power CPU (like arms) for the OS.
     
    #16 Globalisateur, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
    milk and BRiT like this.
  17. mpg1

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    FaKe NeWs!!!!
     
    Picao84 likes this.
  18. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,592
    Likes Received:
    2,321
    Location:
    France
    Thanks for the correction ! I edited my post...
     
  19. Tkumpathenurpahl

    Tkumpathenurpahl Oil my grapes.
    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    1,430
    In a hypothetical, 4K focused PS5, what minimum speed and size memory would be necessary for non-gaming functions?

    Given that plenty of smartphones do just fine with ~3GB of LPDDR3 memory, would the same amount of DDR3 memory be sufficient for media apps and 4K video capture? Or would a similar quantity of LPDDR4 be the better choice?

    I share function's irritation about poor usage of fast memory - as the next generation will need faster, more expensive memory, it seems like a real waste to keep any amount of that locked away from developers.
     
    milk and BRiT like this.
  20. milk

    milk Like Verified
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    3,429
    I've said more than once that even a lot of stuff used by the game does not need to waste super fast mem. I think a tiered memory system of some sort, as long as it doesnt have absurd bottlenecks like the xbone, is the most efficient design choice.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...