Unreal Engine 5 Tech Demo, Release Target Late 2021

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by mpg1, May 13, 2020.

  1. chris1515

    Legend Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    5,971
    Likes Received:
    6,094
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    At best standard SSD ten time faster than the one in PS5 will arrived in 2029/2031 with PCIE 7(64GB/s). PCIE 5(16 GB/s in theory) and PCIE 6(32 GB/s in theory) specification are released and they aren't fast enough. 2022 for PCIE 5 and 2025/2026 for PCIE 6.

    There is a bit more than decompression and direct access to VRAM in DirectStorage

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/

    This is the problem out of decompression and direct access between the SSD and the VRAM.

    And part of the solution.
     
    #1301 chris1515, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  2. HLJ

    HLJ
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    326
    Last reply about me, my person and my upgrade path:

    The HPE SSD's are from my work, zero cost.
    But yeah, ever since socket 1336 (X58) I have always gone top of the line and replaced my rig ever 2-3 years, the GPU often more.

    I work in IT, and gaming is my cheapest hobby.
    My martial arts hobby cost way more.
    Besides I am at a point in my life where I have $1800 of "fun money" every month so no biggie.

    I also have a 7.1 THX calibrated soundset for gaming.

    I go all in with my hobbies, if that give you an issue...that is your problem.

    And why I am quite sure that my PC always will beat consoles in I.Q./performance.

    Now when UE5 comes out to PC I will make sure to bench it for you...deal?
     
    tinokun and PSman1700 like this.
  3. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,402
    Likes Received:
    10,447
    Location:
    London, UK
    Epic disagree:

    Like mots features of previous version of UE, it's scaleable.

    Where are you getting this information about Direct Storage?

    Relative to what? :???: Disk operations should not be using significant CPU usage on any platform. Windows is the outlier here because of Window's architecture. But your average sustained I/O on any typical device shouldn't be using more than 5% of your CPU. Window's issue isn't that it causes high CPU usage, it's just the fundamental model bottlenecks I/O and introduces latency. You can test this on your own PC. Unless you're runing an IDE controller from the 1990s, you should not be having issues.

    Can you provide a link to this? I've seen this oft quoted on resetera but never seen the article itself.

    You need to accept that he references to CPU usage are not about I/O but the way data is stored and the data flow for getting it into a usable state, not inherently the I/O itself. This is different. You also need to stop making assumptions about Direct Storage given Microsoft themselves have said very little about the implementation on Windows.

    I'm stating neither. I've made literally no references to lumen or nanite. :???:

    No I don't misunderstand your post. This is like your dogged determination to get me to have some kind of view on lumen/nanite above, and is something I didn't bring up. You keep tossing more and more things into the discussions none of which are to do with I/O which is the only thing I originally comment on. :-(

    I am really beginning to hate these awful 'debates' because every technical discussion turns into an absolute cluster fuck of people just tossing in any old bollocks to every exchange. I'm out at this point. The same people holding Direct Storage up as some panacea for I/O issues are the same people who denied PCs even had an I/O issues once Sony's I/O bandwidth number were made public. It's exhausting, you believe what you like, I don't care.
     
  4. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    1,915
    I'd rather have something like an Optane solution...... Anyway yes, consoles basically lack any kinds of system ram, the SSD somewhat mititagates for that, nowhere close to what even todays DDR4 system ram does in terms of raw speed/latency. Even DDR3 outmatches them, (old triple channel setups).

    7gb/s before compression is already a whole lot faster then 5. 2gb/s is close to what the XSX delivers before compression. With GPU compression in action i already call that magnitudes faster.

    Thats some intresting theories as usual. Top end pc solutions today already are faster then the PS5s. Dont see that changing all that much IF the PS6 will ever come.
    Hopefully not, its enought with being held back.

    Just ignore him, before he gets even more personal and other sony fans intervene. It has happened before and it will happen again in due time. Report anything offtopic (claming requests of screens of system specs is) and use the ignore button if so desired.

    Yeah, i dont see why having a top of the line system seems so.... unplausible to some. In the grand scheme of things, its nowhere near big money. But again, segegration does exist.

    They always have, they always will. Even in IO raw performance their already outmatched, DS will improve on the whole sitation though. Im more impressed on the findings of HDD vs SSD vs NVme ssd in star citizen then any of the PS5s showcasings. Same for CP2077, the streaming tech going from one to another location is amazing. Playing that game with a HDD is almost impossible. In Doom Eternal, you go from 20s loads to zero. Yet, there is chris1515 claiming going from HDD to SSD doesnt improve so much :)

    High end pc's are going to tear through that demo. A fast 7gb/s (14 and much more with gpu compression) nvme, 3080/6800XT and up, fast system ram, Imagine the demo maxed out.

    Things got a whole lot different after the nvidia showcase though. All those bottlenecks are being worked on, the raw performance is already there and its already amazing enough, good enough for the UE5 demo atleast.
     
  5. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,402
    Likes Received:
    10,447
    Location:
    London, UK
    Specifically which Windows bottlenecks does Nvidia's engineering resolve?
     
  6. HLJ

    HLJ
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2020
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    326
    Hmmm....Optane...I should look at that for my next build :D
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  7. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    1,915
  8. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,119
    Likes Received:
    3,109
    Game is a mess tho , my 1700x with 32gigs of ram and a pci-e3 nvme drive with a 3080 or vega 56 can't break 30fps in 4k . I'm assuming its my cpu at this point
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  9. ThePissartist

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,857
    Likes Received:
    843
    This is why I love the internet. Thank you.
     
  10. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    1,915
    Almost certainly. Seeing DF's video it runs nicely, but with a much more capable CPU.
     
  11. cwjs

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2020
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    145
    Regarding posts above: I don't think dick measuring about whether your personal pc can outperform a console is really productive to the ue5 discussion. We're speculating what software will ship based on average consumer hardware, not what the ultra high end will do.

    @Chris, we're reading all the same quotes, we just have wildly different takeways. Maybe it's my background as a 3d artist, but I feel like everything you linked argues my point.

    Its silly to think that cloud streaming will be an answer when ssd's arent -- many users' data caps are still smaller than the ps5 ssd, let alone speeds. Who wants 20 minute load times!?


    This is what I'm talking about! There's too much variation on formats to really speculate, but since you're using this as evidence I will too: Using dxt1, a 4k texture is like 10mb. A 1 mil tri mesh is ~50mb as a .obj. You can already get much smaller with draco or something, but decompression is measured in seconds there, not viable for streaming. I don't know much at all about compressed formats, but 1mil = 4k texture sounds cutting edge to me.

    Something is going on here! If they mean that every 1mil is 10mb, these are shippable games as is. (Not to mention the comments to just "drop a few mips" like with textures -- if it turns out karis means "just throw it through simplygon and take a lod" i think devs will be very disappointed -- nanite meshes are probably scaleable in a different way than traditional unprocessed geometry. Again, maybe something along the lines of geometry textures conceptually.)
     
  12. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,119
    Likes Received:
    3,109
    looks like he hits 40fps so i dunno. Crytek engine was never optimized well for cpus and star citizen isn't either. They need to do a lot more work. Its why i don't think the game will be out before 2024
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  13. BoardBonobo

    BoardBonobo My hat is white(ish)!
    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    393
    Location:
    SurfMonkey's Cluster...
    What's the big deal with the Chinese stream? They're playing an mp4 recording of the PS5 UE5 demo. It's not running on the PC :/ And they basically said that running it on a 2070 with an SSD might be possible but it really requires a fast I/O subsystem coupled with a fast SSD. That's the tech that Epic were working with Sony to perfect, the ability to place high detail models straight into the right location in memory without the usual overhead.
     
  14. chris1515

    Legend Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    5,971
    Likes Received:
    6,094
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    Do you know they do this in Flight Simulator 2020?
    https://www.techradar.com/news/micr...tential-of-azure-cloud-computing-in-pc-gaming

    I know this means much more data with what Epic is saying.

    I am lucky enough to live in Europe where data caps doesn't exist for home internet, we only have data caps in mobile internet when the data caps is reached you can continue to use internet but not in 4G. Some countries have unlimited mobile internet too.

    [​IMG]

    Here this is slow down by the PS4 HDD. I have a 600 Mbits internet and my installation speed is limited by the HDD not the internet connection. When I wll have my PS5, I will probably be able to load 10 GB in 2 minutes. I lived in multiples european country and France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Spain and Germany have great Internet connection if you live in a city. I went for job to Portugal it looks good too but I was not there long enough to be sure.

    For Kraken geometry is generally 2 or 3 to 1 but he talks about mips probably something similar to geometry textures but again they know the size of the demo this is probably not enough to reach shippable games. And some studio already have a version of the engine.

    I never said it is the same than the .obj but it seems they think the demo assets used in Unreal Engine 5 demo are too big to be used in a game. As a 3d artist you must know than if they said this they know about what they are talking about. This is not like Epic deliver one of the biggest commercial game engine and they too shipped one of the biggest game with Fortnite.

    This is the guy who created Nanite who said this is too much for shippable game but you can reduce the quality and he talked about mips probably geometry as a texture. I believe him more than you, he is much more believable. This is incredible people who believe they know better than the guy who created the technology and who was part of the team doing the demo. Internet is more crazy everyday.



    In bold the part where he said this is unrealistic to have this type of assets in a game. There is no interpretation, gamers don't hope the same level of detail in a game, this is not realistic. This is just a demo.

    EDIT: And fit games on disc is a problem today with non duplication of assets like with a HDD and better compression, it will improve the situation but at the same time the quality of assets will explode. We have double the BR size and with internet patch I expect devs will try to not go above 200 GB for a game.

    https://bartwronski.com/2020/12/27/...allenge-productionizing-rendering-algorithms/

    Same it was difficult for Spiderman
     
    #1314 chris1515, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
    DSoup and cwjs like this.
  15. cwjs

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2020
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    145
    I'm kinda suspicious how much in terms of actual megabytes of geometry and texture detail fs streams -- surely its something, but if it's just like "road detail textures" that's less interesting. Either way, the geometry in your local environment changes much (much -- probably minutes vs milliseconds!) slower in fs than in an average commercial game (the kind of game that ue5 will have to serve hundreds of) and is much more predictable (x by x km region of terrain, not like ~20/600 props and interiors and etc.) Your inernet is definitely better than me, but I'm sure you know how bad american internet is and how big the american market is.

    There's no interpretation that 33m is wasteful for that statue -- it's clearly not even visibly contributing detail anywhere in the demo.

    But there's a ton of room between "33m" and "regular game asset just like everyone else" -- if theyre shipping 3m-5m average tri count assets (probably about what you'd target if you wanted it to be completely impossible to detect any change) its still 10+x more than most games. (And that 33m asset will run fine on pcs with average ssds and without directstorage, i think, just won't be practical to ship an entire videogame like that.)

    Another assumption here -- i'd bet money the additional debug screens from that twitter thread are running on his personal PC, not a ps5.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  16. chris1515

    Legend Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    5,971
    Likes Received:
    6,094
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    I never said asset quality will not improve but mandalorian asset quality is probably not realistic in a game and I know artists will be very good with asset between 1 to 5 millions and 4k textures. But probably for the first time since game cartridge this is funny to have fast storage and not being able to fully used them because the storage size is not big enough.

    The debug screen is coming from the Unreal Engine fest presentation. This is a screenshot coming from this presentation.

     
  17. cwjs

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2020
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    145
    yeah, I agree that ssds (regular ssds without directstorage though :p) will be able to run nanite data too big to actually ship in a game, i've always been arguing with the claim that this demo couldn't run on a regular high end laptop at the time it was created and needed the ps5's super fast ssd and io.

    Bolded part: my bad been a long time since i watched it.
     
    pjbliverpool likes this.
  18. chris1515

    Legend Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    5,971
    Likes Received:
    6,094
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    I find it sad on PC or consoles, imagines a game with mandalorian assets quality at 4k on a 3090.
     
  19. cwjs

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2020
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    145
    I don't think the reality will be far off (as far as meshes are concerned). If the 1mil = 4k texture claim is true, and if it's true that nanite can save on a lot of texture space (less normal maps, etc), 5mil tri props will be very feasible on ~100-200gb games, and you won't be able to tell the difference between 5 and 30 on most subjects.
     
  20. cheapchips

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    The fun part is that for the various levels of storage and game resolutions the artist shouldn't have to change the original assets. That's someone else's or the tools job to run the "stored Nanite version quality sliders".
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...