Unreal Engine 5 Tech Demo, Release Target Late 2021

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by mpg1, May 13, 2020.

  1. ToTTenTranz

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    Creative interpretation is happening when you need to make lengthy explanations of the selected bolded parts you chose from an interview to try to make a point that honestly isn't really there.


    All this time quoting the amateur translations of a Chinese guy in some livestream and turns out you have the same statements made by Epic's CTO?

    Well then, let's see those statements of him saying the Demo (not the engine) is running on a windows pc.
    Only the we'll have something to discuss.

    After release, a runtime of the demo was made available to PS5 devkits with PS5 hardware, not windows PCs that have no hardware decompression.
     
  2. DSoup

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    Lots of people had SSD in their last gen consoles; the storage medium is only one part of the I/O chain, the rest is about getting data off the I/O where it needs to be delivering data ready for CPU and GPU. Again, the holistic view by Sweeney - quoting emphasis mine:

    You can put a SSD in PS3, and Sony did begin selling SSD PS3 models in 2012. The SSD alone is not enough. SSD =/= I/O. It's about I/O. Microsoft understand this and this is why they're working on the Direct Storage API to help improve the situation on Windows. To bring some of the nascent I/O benefits of the new consoles to desktop PCs but this will be a much longer road.

    I don't see the relevance but why would Tim Sweeney say this, and how could he? Consoles are known quantity fixed architecture but PC hardware is pretty damn broad. His strategic goal for Unreal Engine is to sell it to devs so in any way suggesting it won't run on one platform doesn't align with this. UE5 is also not a finished product, when they demonstrated it running on PS5 it was 18 months ahead of planned release later this year.

    Again this.. PCs have used SSDs for a decade and the SSD is not the magic bullet. Hence DirectStorage. The I/O framework it is hooked onto is as important. The I/O framework is genuinely new, SSDs not not. the only thing that has changed with this gen is SSDs are standard so we've moved from 50MB/sec transfers that was the PS4/Pro HDD performance.

    edit: typos.
     
    #1262 DSoup, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  3. chris1515

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    And games engine I/O and how data is tackled need to be improved and optimized too. This is not a magic bullet. Out of Insomniac I don't think engine are fully ready. Demon's souls is not bad but initial loading is a bit slow. Spiderman and Insomniac engine were used for R&D purpose by Sony. Before 2022, most of the game will not be optimized around SSD out of this engine.

    For example, In Unreal Engine 4.25 when they talk about I/O improvement, they said they needed to improve how they initialize the engine too. Before it was massively single threaded, no need to be more efficient because of slow HDD.





    EDIT: High speed is more comfortable





    No magic data need to be store in a way to be usable by the CPU and GPU without any additional treatment in RAM



    Exactly what mark cerny said, I/O need to be transparent. Been able to load 4.8 GB/s or 11 GB/s is useful to have enough margin to never think about I/O as a limit stream BVH for static object in a scene, with high res texture and high polycount or to do fancy stuff like fast portal in R&C Rift Apart.

    I can't post more tweet but he said too out of the fast hardware decompressor, there is nothing very fancy in PS5 and Xbox Series SSD. He doesn't know anything about the custom PS5 SSD controller but some partial explanation are made inside some patents. The biggest thing is the way the firmware are custom in the PS5 and Xbox Series SSD. He said this is not like a off the shelf NVME SSD. A first example is the 6 queues priority of Mark Cerny talk.
     
    #1263 chris1515, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
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  4. JoeJ

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    Yesterday i was experimenting with fluid sim and remembered our question about 'how much does better / detailed geometry help with better lighting?'. This is what i got (i try to model terrain, but got some form of funny brain structures):
    upload_2021-1-5_10-10-31.png
    And i am surprised how 'realistic' this looks. It looks like having AO or even GI.
    But it has nothing of that. I only calculate a normal per particle from the density grid, and map this to some fake diffuse gradient. Really the cheapest form of lighting we can do at all.
     
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  5. jlippo

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    Self occlusion adds quite nice amount of perceived detail and change the look of surface from different directions.
    Over relying on bump/normal maps show areas which should be invisible and so on.
     
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  6. zed

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    on the left where you are doing X = abs(x)
    it doesnt look like a brain, more just lots of naked women all intertwined

    ........ ahem or maybe thats just me
     
  7. JoeJ

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    hmm, now that you mention i realize what causes this SSAO or sharpening filter effect. I cull particles with a small density gradient because they are likely inside and not visible. This creates holes in concave corners and the grey background shines through. For the white material this looks like shadows, amplifying detail. So i've fooled myself a bit :)
     
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  8. JoeJ

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    Hehe, so i created a human brains imagination boosting image :)
     
  9. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    So you're suggesting we ignore parts of the interview because they don't align with your interpretations?

    I'm not sure why you're trying to dismiss this as a "Chinese guy in some livestream" rather than acknowledging that this was an Epic engineer with direct access to the Demo in an official EPIC China livestream and Q&A.

    And I have referenced Kim Liberi's comments numerous times in this thread, both back in May and more recently - as have many others.

    Here is how PCGamer describes the conversation.

    "I couldn't get any exact specifications from Epic, but on a conference call earlier this week I asked how an RTX 2070 Super would handle the demo, and Epic Games chief technical officer Kim Libreri said that it should be able to get "pretty good" performance. But aside from a fancy GPU, you'll need some fast storage if you want to see the level of detail shown in the demo video."

    https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/fast-ssd...-unreal-engine-5-demos-super-detailed-scenes/

    This isn't relevant because as you know, unless the tech is in every console, developers can't target it as a baseline, let alone major cross platform middleware developers.

    And by far the biggest change to the IO systems in the new consoles is the move from a spinning disk to an NVMe SSD. Yes there are other elements (many of which like hardware decompressors were already in the last gen consoles), but for the most part these are about removing the associated overhead on the CPU of the very fast data transfers enabled by the SSD's. However as long as you're not maxing out the transfer speeds of a multi-GB NVMe SSD then all of this is perfectly feasible on a good CPU - even without Direct Storage.

    And at no point has anyone from EPIC ever stated that the UE5 demo maxes out the PS5's or even XSX's sustained data transfer speed. In fact, the Epic China engineer reportedly said the exact opposite.

    Sure, reducing IO CPU overhead is a great thing. But no-one's claimed it's a requirement for the UE5 demo provided you have a good CPU.

    How could Tim Sweeney say the demo can't run on PC when directly asked? Presumably in exactly the same way that you and Tottentranz are saying it if what you're saying is accurate. i.e. "no it can't run on any PC because it requires an IO system as capable as the PS5's which no PC has". Simple enough if true. But when asked directly, he hasn't said it. Other senior Epic employees however have said the opposite.

    We're not talking about the engine which Sweeney has made quite clear will run on everything from a smart phone upwards, and has also confirmed that all the technology in the demo will run on PC's. We're talking about the specific demo itself. The one specifically demonstrated on the PS5 in a co-ordinated cross promotional event a few weeks before Sony invested $250m in Epic Games. I'm sure I don't need to spell out the potential reasons why Tim may not be in a position to promote the demo on other platforms.

    I'm surprised to hear this argument coming from you. You know as well as I do that the penetration of SSD's in the PC market is nowhere near sufficient to base something as significant as the next iteration of the cross platform Unreal Engine on. No developer in their right mind would design a game engine that requires an SSD as a baseline without the consoles having SSD's. You've argued along similar lines in the past so I know you know this to be true.

    Of course the consoles do go beyond just slapping an SSD in there and calling it day. But that in no way equates to this UE5 demo requiring an IO system on par with the PS5's. We've literally been told that already by both the Epic CTO and an Epic engineer. In fact re-reading it, your argument above even seems to be suggesting that it's not only the demo, but the entire UE5 engine that won't run on current PC's because they lack the some of the additional IO elements of the new consoles. And again, we know that to be false because Sweeney has made clear that both Nanite and Lumen will run on PC's:

     
  10. cwjs

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    One of the funnier things about this particular brand of fanboy nonsense is it could easily have gone the other way -- were microsoft or nvidia or somebody partnering for the nanite reveal demo they would have talked up different features, and we would have had fanboys banging on about how the (almost surely meshlet-like) geometry streaming approach is "only possible with dx12 ultimate" until it finally comes out that it runs on any hardware you can do compute shaders on.

    If you don't know or aren't interested in learning how tech works it's easy to imagine that any feature being marketed is 100% necessary for a given game or demo to run.
     
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  11. HLJ

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    This is how I see it:
    Sony/Epic does a demo.
    *console crowd goes wild and pop the champagne*
    Data leaks, showing the PC is also able (and running faster on a laptop than the PS5)
    *console crowds holds breath and utters "But...but...but*

    My take:
    When it comes to Windows game my current Pc will run it better than the PS5 /shrugs

    I spotted a lot "In your face PC master race" after the demo.
    That turned to anger and/or dud when it was revealed that said feature would also come to the PC.

    But...welcome to solid state media age...took you guys long enough :razz:
     
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  12. chris1515

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    The demo was supposed to be shown at the GDC 2020. It was finished in March 2020 but the GDC was cancelled. The demo will run on anything maybe a HDD, they designed the engine to scale.

    I am curious to see how it will scale depending of the storage capacity or the power of the hardware..
     
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  13. ThePissartist

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    I agree with most of your post, but I think you're wrong with this part. You don't need to load 16GB to be transferring at 5.5GB/s or 9GB/s. Really it'd be possible load 150KB at 9GB/s, we'd just be using the wrong unit of measurement or accurately describe what was happening.

    When the UE5 engine is loading and providing it's making full use of the IO and SSD, then it's transferring somewhere between the upper decompression value to the lower non-decompression value.

    Different systems will simply just have the assets faster or slower than other systems. Whether it's visible or not would surely be determined by how fast or slow you're able to move through the environment.

    Looks like your quote from Epic seems to confirm my suspicions of you needing a proportionally fast SSD/IO when matched with a fast GPU.

    Measuring GPU performance is gonna be a bitch though, especially if EPIC/UE5 targets the rendering according to the transfer speeds of the SSD.
     
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  14. ThePissartist

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    Everyone was being quite grown up and trying to determine how the engine functioned.

    Do you have a screenshot of your system specs? It might actually be fun to see how it compares over the course of the generation, but please if you're going to do it be honest and upfront about your PC's specs. Hence why a screenshot would be a good start. :)
     
  15. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Yes you're right, I shouldn't have said "sustained" transfer speed, but rather just transfer speed (over any time period). As chris1515's post shows above data streaming is bursty rather than being consistently high. However based on the comments of Kim Liberi and the Epic engineer it would suggest that there aren't any points in the demo that would require even burst speeds as high as what the PS5 is capable of.
     
  16. eastmen

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    Not just the hard drive but also ram amounts. Ram is cheap.

    Is it better for a customer who wants to run unreal 5 games better to buy a 1TB pci-e4 nvme drive or another 32 gigs of ram ?
     
  17. ThePissartist

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    Any of its loading would be as fast as the hardware allows. If it's loading, then it's loading somewhere between the upper and lower ranges - those values are it's normal range (using medical terminology).

    Whether the engine *needs* to load it that quickly would surely be determined by the game and the need to move quickly through detailed environments.

    Whether this particular demo maxes out the PS5's IO can be argued until the end of days, but it appears that the engine *allows* for a game to stream at the PS5's transfer rate and that it wouldn't be possible on something with a slower transfer speed (without compromises). Makes logical sense, surely?
     
    #1277 ThePissartist, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  18. chris1515

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    Again choose the PS5 or the XSX was the logic for the demo. There is three steps to a NVMe SSD to be useful in game. First is the hardware, second it is the OS and API optimized around it and third game engine to be optimised around it.

    The PC doesn't have the second step currently and without the second step, the third step is not possible
    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/

    When DirectStorage will arrive, it will be up to date.

    SSD is there since a long time on PC but SATA SSD are enough for gaming because the I/O stack is not good enough. For gaming, NVMe are underexploited on PC since they released.



    or a more recent video


    https://www.techspot.com/review/2116-storage-speed-game-loading/

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Even on PS5 you need the game to be optimised

    Good for Spiderman MM or Demon's souls



    But no so good on a non optimised backward compatible game, this is faster but far from Spiderman MM or Demon's soul's


    I think the SSD why take 32 GB of RAM when Directstorage game will arrive texture and geometry will directly be loaded inside VRAM.;)

    And streaming pool size is not big for Nanite and it will be optimised in the future. It is more important how fast the engine is able to load an replace data into this pool of memory.
    [​IMG]
     
    #1278 chris1515, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  19. eastmen

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    Why ?

    DDR 4 3200 32GB ($125) https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Ball...=1609880332&sprefix=ddr+4+3200,aps,164&sr=8-9

    DDR 4 3200 64gigs ($200) https://www.amazon.com/TEAMGROUP-32...609880397&sprefix=ddr4+3200+64,aps,156&sr=8-9


    Gen 4 nvme drives are what

    500GB $110 https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Forc...=1609880485&sprefix=pci-4+nvme,aps,170&sr=8-3

    You can change from the 500GB to the 2TB on that link and its $379 bucks the 1TB is out of stock so i can't tell you the price.



    I mean i can add 32gigs of ram vs just 500GB of storage. If I already have a sata ssd or even a slower nvme drive and I unreal will make use of the extra ram too , wouldn't it be better to go with the extra ram?
     
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  20. chris1515

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    The 1 TB is around 150 to 180 dollars depending of the price of the NAND or some discount.

    The data is streamed based on current view and this is virtualized geometry. This is exactly what you want to avoid load data in advance what will you load into mip 1 or 2 of UE 5 technology because you are unable to load the LOD0 as fast as possible and this is sad if the GPU is able to render the mip 0 LOD. It means too load the full model because you don't know what you will render on screen. And Direct Storage is their to avoid having to copy the data between RAM and VRAM.

    They talked about mip level of geometry, it means you will have less polygons because your storage is not fast enough to load the data. In the demo the streaming pool is only 768 MB because of fast storage but if you begin to load full model basically the VRAM will maybe be a problem.

    The level of detail scale with the storage speed.

    EDIT:
    https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Inte...+Nvme+PCIe+4.0+M.2+2280&qid=1609881697&sr=8-1

    This one is 169 dollars a 1TB PCIE 4
     
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