Unreal Engine 5 Tech Demo, Release Target Late 2021

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by mpg1, May 13, 2020.

  1. JoeJ

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    To me more clear, the bunny above has terrible distortion wtith the texture boundary collapsing to a singularity at the bottom, probably. That's useless as it can not handle complex topology at all.

    Found this old picture on my HD:
    upload_2020-5-18_19-49-52.png
    Here you could place a displacement texture on each of those quads, and becasue their resolution matches at quad boundaries, the displacement is seamless, has not cracks, and texel to surface ratio is pretty uniform.
    This would work.

    But Epics solution does not need to address the difficult combinatorial problem of quadrangualtion, neither they have to recompute new UVs i guess.
     
  2. Shifty Geezer

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    That's a question for another thread. This thread is not a comparison of the different console performances. ;)

    A-ha! I see the text quoted isn't off-topic at all. Carry on...
     
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  3. Love_In_Rio

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    I edited on time! ;)
     
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  4. Shifty Geezer

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    The main point of that image and algorithm is it shows how non-obvious data mappings can change the problem considerably. It shows Epic likely aren't just throwing vertex data down the IO pipe and could be doing something that may be visualisable as a 3D texture
     
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  5. zupallinere

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    Indeed it is slurping up compressed structured texture and geometry data and painting it on to an invisible 3d world. A patina thin voxel layer of sorts.
     
  6. ToTTenTranz

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    Wow, leave this thread for 3 days and it's a friggin' rollercoaster of way-too-early conclusions everywhere.

    - It's compute-dependent, it has little to do with I/O speed so PCs with Vegas will run this super fast!
    - Tim Sweeney: "It's super dependent on I/O speed".
    - It's only dependent on I/O overhead which Microsoft will solve and everyone will get this demo running on their PCs!
    - Tim Sweeney: "It's I/O overhead and hardware data decompression which has no PC equivalent".
    - Look there's this guy running on a laptop with a mobile RTX 2080 faster than 30 FPS.
    -
    Tim Seeney: "That was.. a video maybe? That doesn't look possible."
    - No it was running in editor mode on a laptop because the chinese Epic guy said so!
    - No LOD or resolution mentioned, so we're not comparing apples-to-apples and for all we know the laptop could be showing something very similar to today's games.
    - If it's dependent on PS5's storage then it's useless!

    Well the SeriesX also has hardware decompressor, even though base SSD speed is halved so it might have repercussions on how much geometry it can take per frame.


    If you consider Epic's founder and CEO a semi-official source, I wonder what it takes to be considered an actually official one.
    :wink4:


    Meaning: it's not about fast storage, it's about having reducing IO overhead (solvable by software) and a capable hardware decompression block (non-solvable by software).
    The r/pcmasterrace sub has been mocking Tim Sweeney for the past 5 days non-stop because he dared to say there's no PC equivalent to the PS5's I/O performance, which enabled the demo (not UE5, simply the demo we saw).
    People building $5000 PCs with 16 cores, Titans and super expensive PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives are in for a surprise.


    Or maybe the fact that RAM density per-slot didn't increase nearly as much after ~2012 like it had been up until that point?
    In 2011, I would have guessed a typical 2020 PC would have 64GB of RAM, yet most are stuck with 16GB due to a number of things that happened between RAM makers (earthquakes, tsunamis, cartels, etc.).
    I'm guessing if most gaming PCs had 64 to 128GB of RAM, then game designers would have designed games to load most of the game into the RAM, with access to IO being much less frequent.

    Imagine if the new consoles had also increased their RAM amount by 16x, like they did between PS360 and current-gen. 128GB RAM PS5/SeriesX?




    AFAIK Tim Sweeney still gives keynotes about the latest Unreal Engine features.

    There's just nothing that provides hardware decompression in any roadmap, at the moment.
    Unless some company appears with some AIB developed in secret for the PC, that puts the PC years behind the new-gen consoles on I/O performance. I just don't see any way around this.
    (sorry for the multi-quote, but I think it addresses the same question)
     
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  7. Globalisateur

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    I agree, but why should we use real speeds in game environment for PS5, but max theoretical speeds (never reached) for all others I/Os compared to PS5 ?
     
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  8. Barrabas

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    In the UE5 demo around 1:45 Epic say that they are not using the game versions of the quixel megascan assets, but the cinematic versions that is typically used in films with around a million triangles each. Further they say that there are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame that Nanite crunches down lossless to around 20 million of drawn triangles. The key here I think is that what we will see in games are game versions of the assets and that the fear of massive sized game might not be an issue. One of the benefits with this engine is to ease work for developers to just swap in original high poly models. What if you can use the engine to create game assets versions that are what is ultimately stored on the game disc? The details we also see in the demo might not be to unrealistic to expect in games because they are basically crunched down by the engine to game versions of assets.
    I suddenly feel a bit more optimistic that this demo is not just a pipe dream for real games, but we have to see:-D
    Here you can see some quixel megascan models used in the UE5 demo.

    https://quixel.com/megascans/collec...nt&category=natural&category=limestone-quarry
     
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  9. JoeJ

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    I never spend time to calculate proper storage / compression wins. If this would enough to get such details, maybe i should stick at it :)
    If not, DAG could be used. If they use SVO that's almost the same and compression results are orders of magnitude better from SVO if the model is huge enough. It's basically SVO with instancing at any tree level, so 'micro instancing' to sound hip.
    Though i did not pay much attention to the papers that handle geometry and texture and don't remember how the ratios were affected.
     
  10. BRiT

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  11. Quadbitnomial

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    I love watching other developers talk about their games chief example is dreams which still boggles my mind sometimes.
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. pjbliverpool

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    Guess...
    Who's doing that? The figures we should all be comparing are those advertised by Microsoft and Sony as their typical compressed throughput (4.8 vs 8-9) and on the PC side to the base uncompressed speed of whatever drive we're using as a point of comparison - with the caveat that we don't know whether PC's will reach those speeds until we have a better understanding of DirectStorage.
     
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  13. BRiT

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  14. PSman1700

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    He doesn't lie perhaps, he says current, well yeah PS5 isn't current either, you cannot buy it. End of year drives will be over 7gb/s and with velocity architecture even those bottlenecks are removed. Theres no need for concerns in the pc space, it's already beyond both ps5 and xsx today ;)
     
  15. JoeJ

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    Here the paper about DAG with texture: http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~uffe/dolonius2017i3d.pdf
    Compression ratio against SVO is worse than with no textures, but still it's something:
    upload_2020-5-18_21-43-1.png
    Unfortunately the poly counts for the models are not given, just volume resolution. So i can not relate this to UE5.
    I'm not aware of methods that would reach higher compression.
     
  16. JoeJ

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    ... thinking of it, UT5 demo has only two colors: Dark brown and light brown. So this would help a lot with color quantization. :)
    Joke aside that's probably true for most Quixel real world scans.
     
  17. milk

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    If they are really going with geometry images by encoding verts xyz into a 2d texture and leveraging image compression algos that already exist, then they can't really claim losslessness.

    Those rocky delapidated surfaces aren't just great for showing off high geometric density, they are also great at hiding compression artifacts. It's hard to point out small imperfections in a dilapidated ruin. But how about a smooth spaceship? Well, at least smooth surfaces will already compress very well without needing to get lossy. Hummm.

    In that case, the most pathological case would be strucutures with regularly repeating fine-grained patterns of sharp and smooth forms. Say, a regularly ondulating pattern across a curved structure. That does not look like a smooth gradient when encoded in a 2D texture, and out-of-place verts would stick out visibly.
     
  18. Recop

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    To summarize :

    - We don't know if the PS5's SSD was essential for the demo (and i mean for the same fidelity).

    - Some people claim that a laptop ran the demo.

    - Even if true, we still don't know how much PS5's SSD will be useful for games.

    - We have to wait for actual games.
     
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  19. milk

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    I also find it surprising they manage map arbitrary topologies into a perfectly regular grid of quads. I can't wrap my head around how they make that work.

    Maybe, as they divide the mesh up into multiple patches, each with their own geometry image, some of those, if not many, end up with multiple unused texels at the edges.
     
  20. Scott_Arm

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    They're not. They have their own solution. We just have to wait and see what it is.



    "Path has moved far from there since." He started researching with inspiration from GIM and SVO, but it's not the solution they ended up with. Expect it to be quite a bit different.
     
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