Unreal Engine 5 Tech Demo, Release Target Late 2021

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by mpg1, May 13, 2020.

  1. j^aws

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    If the Primitive shader is only taking advantage of the instruction set available to the CU and nothing else, then this doesn't make sense to me because you might as well run your shader code from your Compute shader, and test for a performance path output to the FF rasteriser when performance is required from them. Compute shader or Primitive Primitive shader, they both have access to CU instructions. Unless your Primitive shsder has access to additional instructions from a set of ALUs which may also include CUs, then these additional instructions made available to your Primitive shader makes switching worthwhile.

    Anothet thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if both Epic and Sony were in discussions about future rendering technologies, and Cerny had access to AMDs IP portfolios, why didn't they design an advanced hardware Programmable Primitive block that would act as a fast function 'Reyes Rasteriser' processing micropolygons - similar to how traditional FF rasterisers act today but designed for REYES? This should leave the compute heavy work to all your CUs to focus on lighting and shading for Lumen.

    Tim Sweeney has been thinking about REYES and voxels since at least as early as 1999. Below are his predictions from then for circa 2006/7:

    https://techreport.com/news/46/sweeney-on-the-future-of-3d-graphics/

    "2006-7: CPU’s become so fast and powerful that 3D hardware will be only marginally benfical for rendering relative to the limits of the human visual system, therefore 3D chips will likely be deemed a waste of silicon (and more expensive bus plumbing), so the world will transition back to software-driven rendering. And, at this point, there will be a new renaissance in non-traditional architectures such as voxel rendering and REYES-style microfacets, enabled by the generality of CPU’s driving the rendering process. If this is a case, then the 3D hardware revolution sparked by 3dfx in 1997 will prove to only be a 10-year hiatus from the natural evolution of CPU-driven rendering."

    I can excuse his CPU to be modern day Compute in GPUs today. His REYES became Nanite, and voxels became Lumen. I suppose RDNA2 will be like a crossroads, allowing traditional rendering to exist with emerging alternatives.
     
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  2. Scott_Arm

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    @j^aws I'm sure there are some advantages to primitive shaders over compute shaders when you're processing vertices, otherwise it wouldn't exist. You're probably right about that. But they're designed to replace a particular part of the render pipeline to fit within the context of Direct3D and Vulkan. So they take vertices as inputs and output vertices, as far as I can tell.
     
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  3. Love_In_Rio

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  4. Love_In_Rio

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  5. ultragpu

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    And there we have it. For all we know the demo could have hovered around 30-45 on PS5 if uncapped. PS5 is 2070 Super level mostly I reckon.
     
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  6. Love_In_Rio

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    They are aiming 1440p 60fps so surely they already reach 60 fps in many parts. I would bet when Lumen kicks heavily in is when the frame rate suffers, so thats way they are even considering mixing it with RT hardware.
     
  7. Dictator

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    The dynamic res tells us that is not the case, it was 1440p for most of the Demo with a drs on targetting 4K. That means the Gpu, even at 30 fps, was being fully utilised. I think epic was so clear about the Real resolution of the Demo because they have an engine to sell and they want Potential dev teams to know how it runs.

    At least that is how dynamic res works in every Single game on Unreal Engine we have ever tested. That is why you use, to Max the Gpu and always get the best Image quality possible.

    Sweeneys quote regarding dramatically different frame times in the Demo does not really align with DRS usage in Unreal Engine. You can test it yourself if you want to in Gears 5 or in almost any game using Unreal Engine unlocker. When you target an overly greedy resolution like 4k and apply DRS, it will keep frame times much more similar to eachother. It being mostly 1440p as epic said before would mean that many of the Demos frames cost a similar amount even without drs. If DRS has a stable res then that means the content has a stable cost.
     
    #627 Dictator, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  8. DavidGraham

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    I think he is in full damage control mode now, how can the video achieve 40fps? videos don't go faster than the source, he himself stated that RTX 2070 Super runs the demo with pretty good performance couple with an NVMe drive.

    He seems confused, the event did have the video playing on a laptop for demonstration purposes, so he assumed people are asking about that, when -in fact- people are asking him about what the engineer said!
     
    #628 DavidGraham, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  9. PSman1700

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  10. DavidGraham

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    He is genuinely confused:



    And then:

     
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  11. John Norum

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    maybe in this demo (without HW based raytracing) ps5 is on level of RTX 2070 (not super, RTX2080 mobile is 1-4% more faster than a desktop rtx 2070)
    but RTX have more silicon, it has raytracing units, that is not used by this demo, it has tensor cores, etc. we need a better benchmark, a tech demos using raytracing, dlss 2.0 etc, maybe even an RTX 2060 can outperform ps5, it's too early to compare, we need better tools/testbed. And the best testbed will be the games, not side-pay techdemo made to shine in one single platform

    we should wait to compare perfomances, in this moment
     
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  12. ultragpu

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    OK sure thing. But nowhere in that Chinese podcast did they mention about the laptop running a fixed 1440p res, for all we know it could also be running with DRS on, maybe not even at 1440p at all. The nature of that laptop performance was very vaguely presented so I don't think we can rely too much on that for now. More so that PS5 demo was running on early devkit and they were aiming for 60fps, who knows if the final optimized build could put it on the same level as a 2070s. But I admit I jumped into conclusion too fast myself before, we should wait for more data.
     
  13. ThePissartist

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    I love how everyone on this forum understands UE5 better than the founder and CEO of the company that makes it. /s

    Everyone is extrapolating exactly according to their own biases.
     
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  14. chris1515

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    Interesting, some artifact coming from streaming?

     
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  15. chris1515

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    Comment from a game engine designer, he worked on Frosbite.
     
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  16. Shifty Geezer

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    Well, I wouldn't expect a typical CEO to know anything about their products; they tend to have other concerns and hire people to work on engineering products. A CEO still hands on with the technical implementation of their stuff is fairly exceptional. So TBH, people here being better experts on something over the CEO of the multinational that makes it isn't that unrealistic. ;)
     
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  17. ThePissartist

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    Nice reliable source. He's only tweeted 10 times. If anyone wants to take this as gospel should really check out the other 9 tweets (actually 8 because two of them are duplicate).

    Read them and tell me if this is a good source or if this is simply a tweet that plays to whichever platform bias you associate.
     
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  18. Shifty Geezer

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    Is there any reason to lock upper resolution and just use DRS for low resolutions to maintain framerate? Technically that's possible. Perhaps 1440p is the limit of part of the pipeline on PS5 so they can't render above that? Dunno, but as this engine isn't doing the same as other UE titles, we can't really use those as a basis for comparison. We need a better argument based on technical reasons rather than precedent (of which there is none ;)).
     
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  19. Orion

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    Are you sure primitive shaders can't handle virtual triangles? It seems like they're saying they'll fallback to software CUs, when the adequate hardware is not there and thus is slower. I've heard the functionality of the primitive shaders compared to that of the vector units of ps2 which should definitely be able to handle virtual triangles.
    The laptop is also a high end laptop with nvme. Some translations suggest he said a decent ssd could handle it, would like to see what patsu clarifies regards that.

    Even with this high end laptop it seems they needed to optimize layout on ssd for fixed flight path which wont work in open ended flight path.
    If the primitive shaders involve a rework of h/w might they not be faster than the compute shader route?

    If that were so, would the hardware be part of geometry handling hardware in the gpu? or would it be part of the CUs? When someone like sony says geometry engine, do they mean a specific piece of hardware or simply a modification to CUs or some software solution?


    I wonder if that version running at 40fps is the same as the lower detail version that runs at 60fps in some hardware(probably ps5). Or if he hinted that it was more detailed. Did he say our 60fps optimizations can currently get even 40fps on a laptop or something to that effect?
     
  20. Dictator

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    What do you mean by your first question, could write it out with numbers?
    I do not understand
     
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