Toshiba's Cell TV

I thought I'd throw this Engadget coverage of the CELL TV press event into the mix, apparently the Cell TV is going to convert 2D to 3D in real time if I understood it correctly. Here is yet another, more readable, link. Like Carl B I'm wondering what iteration of the cell technology they're using. A PS3 cell chip sounds like a costly proposition.

I really hope 3D takes off in a big way, though I'm sad it happened right after most people finally moved over to HDTVs; Something which will inevitably slow the adoption rate.
 

Carl B

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The post where I was wondering Spurs vs Cell is from 2008 though. Post #12 onwards is based on Engadget's spec run-down from yesterday. I have a feeling it is the full Cell in this situation, though it could end up being SPURS still I guess.
 
I guess that's something, You're right hehe. It's going to be interesting to know what sort of CPU is in there, and entire Cell chip as in the PS3 is a lot of power for a TV. I don't have a clue as to how computationally expensive it is to transform 2D to 3D (My guess? Very.) but will an entire Cell be needed? Thoughts that pop into my head range from thermal issues to Linux running on it, all in a jumbled and not necessarily constructive way ;-)
 

Shifty Geezer

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The Cell is housed in an external box, so thermal issues can be addressed. All reports are of an 8 core processor, whereas SPURSEngine is 4 SPUs AFAIK, which pretty much seals it. It's also the same processor used to drive the high-end display with its multitudinous video streams, so the peak processing requirement of the architecture will need the full Cell. I suppose if their transformation engine scales well, they could downclock the Cell and use more SPUs. But we've been given a clockspeed of 3.2 GHz. At the end of the day, it's just a monster!
 
Since there was no mention of the "Cell TV" having to use a separate box on Engadget I was under the impression that they were selling one high end "Cell TV" with inbuilt Cell and a separate Cell box for use with other TVs. Could you provide some links? I know Engadget isn't the be-all-end-all news site so I'm not contesting your information.
 

Shifty Geezer

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This image shows the large external box we saw in the original Cell TV from months back, and Google images just shows more of the same.
 

patsu

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Toshiba highlighted Cell TV in CES 2010:
http://www.itproportal.com/portal/n...se-ps3s-cell-processor-tv-sets/#ixzz0bvbZaC4S

10:31am PT: Tri-vector 2D to 3D uses proprietary software to analyze 2D frames and estimate the depth of each area in the frame, and creates a stereoscopic image. ESPN will have a 3D channel.

10:29am PT: Includes a 1TB HDD and built-in BD Player.

10:29am PT: Video phone includes camera, mic and communications software. "how will you look when you're blown up to 55"?"

10:28am PT: What are the Net TV Channels? Vudu, cinemanow, netflix, pandora, flickr, facebook, twitter, rallypoint.

10:27am PT: Comes with Wireless HD, 802.11n, DLNA "digital Media Server" level, USB playback, built-in NetTV Channels, and built-in Video Phone capability.

10:27am PT: Autoview RGB includes color temperature adjustment, which senses ambient light color and adjusts the screen accordingly. This includes wall color, natural light, artificial light, etc.

10:26am PT: 480 Hz refresh will be included on all Cell TVs.

10:26am PT: Net Super Resolution+ upconverts low-res internet content, utilizing "noise cancellation."

10:25am PT: Tenets of the new cell architecture: "Super resolution technology" upconverts and enhances images.

10:24am PT: Cell Engine: 8 core processors, each processor is 3.2 GHz, 200 GFlops, 10x faster than desktop computers.

10:24am PT: Toshiba Series, Cinema Series, and Cell TV series "we're positioning this as the Ultimate TV." It's going to be the subject of today's presentation.

...

10:12am PT: The TV can convert 2D content to 3D in real time.

10:11am PT: He has introduced Toshiba Cell TV, capable of supporting "The Ultimate 3D experience."
 

Shifty Geezer

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Full Cell confirmed. Nice it see it finally breaking out into CE devices!
10:29am PT: Video phone includes camera, mic and communications software. "how will you look when you're blown up to 55"?"
Are they including their virtual makeover application? ;)

An important point for me is low lag. If you have to go through that media box, what sort of image latencies are going to impact your console gaming? It'd be nice if they addressed this, so your ultimate TV doesn't come with a pretty crippling Achille's Heel that frustrates you.

That said, it's overkill and at odds with the HD consoles. These things are already media servers. It makes no sense to have a TV that integrates it. Looks like resolution+ upscaling will come with too much redundant cost to be worthwhile for console owners.
 

Shifty Geezer

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In terms of useable calculation throughput and what most people have as a desktop computer, it's a fairly accurate figure.
 

Arwin

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That said, it's overkill and at odds with the HD consoles. These things are already media servers. It makes no sense to have a TV that integrates it. Looks like resolution+ upscaling will come with too much redundant cost to be worthwhile for console owners.

But the Cell technology is actually in the TV itself. I think it is wise to see the TV and box apart from each other and value them each for what they're worth.
 

green.pixel

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In terms of useable calculation throughput and what most people have as a desktop computer, it's a fairly accurate figure.

Well, that's the thing. You can have the cheapest Atom desktop or Nehalem + AMD Cypress laying around. So, they should be a little bit more accurate, e.g., "it's X times faster than you Y CPU/GPU", IMO, not just typical marketing guys.
 

Shifty Geezer

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But the Cell technology is actually in the TV itself. I think it is wise to see the TV and box apart from each other and value them each for what they're worth.
If you can't buy them as separates, the value proposition remains down for console owners using their consoles as media devices.

Well, that's the thing. You can have the cheapest Atom desktop or Nehalem + AMD Cypress laying around. So, they should be a little bit more accurate, e.g., "it's X times faster than you Y CPU/GPU", IMO, not just typical marketing guys.
But it wasn't a technical presentation! It was a ball-park figure, and as far as ball park figures go it's accurate. Unless you have reason to think the average home PC CPU is pushing well above 20 GFlops, the 10x processing power rating is accurate. Throw in total system processing including GPU and it gets hideously complicated such that comparisons of this ilk are nigh impossible (hence the creation of benchmarking software).

The purpose of the bullet point is to communicate in terms Joe Public will understand that there is a Fast Processor in the TV. Anyone bothered about a lack of technical accuracy should perhaps first launch a campaign against contrast ratios and refresh rate figures which are far more misleading!
 

Arwin

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If you can't buy them as separates, the value proposition remains down for console owners using their consoles as media devices.

That's a big if! I have no indication that suggests you won't be able to.
 

Neb

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Well, that's the thing. You can have the cheapest Atom desktop or Nehalem + AMD Cypress laying around. So, they should be a little bit more accurate, e.g., "it's X times faster than you Y CPU/GPU", IMO, not just typical marketing guys.

Yup, the reason to not specify CPU/GPU is becouse it then would not favor them for their promotion. Not to say Cell isn't very good at this. And then Flops alone are not the be all end all metric and many comparisions tend to be based on different programs/algorithms with different output quality and usually non SSE use or other CPU extension to get desired results to favor marketed product. And then at what task(s)?

Anyone, 'TV-SHOP'? :p

But otherwise the TV as a whole is well equipped and quite luxury. Price point seems quite decent for what you get IMO. :smile:
 
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patsu

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One point to note... the presentation was transcribed by the attendee. The original slide may have better context: The comparison may be made in reference to a desktop CPU at similar price point and power usage.

In this case, I think the news that Toshiba is still continuing its push for Cell is interesting. We know cell is very suitable for AV processing, especially open-ended ones (like adding 2D->3D conversion). Was hunting for the original slides. Could only find this video on realtime 2D->3D conversion (using Cell of course).


As per usual, need to see the tech myself to appreciate its impact and accuracy.
 

green.pixel

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But otherwise the TV as a whole is well equipped and quite luxury. Price point seems quite decent for what you get IMO. :smile:

I would still buy Panasonic's PDPs or the ultimate solution, Pio's Kuro 9G. If I had the money for all of them in this price range, that is. :D

Cell TV still doesn't adress main issues of LCD TV tech. But sure, the 3TB drive + DVR are very nice features to have.

Btw, does anyone know what the estimated price will be?
 
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