The viability of mixed local/cloud rendering?

Squilliam

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I was thinking that instead of having say a game which rendered entirely in the cloud or entirely locally that instead the game could render in a mixed mode where some of the computationally heavy tasks are offloaded to the cloud whilst the latency sensitive tasks were kept local. I think this could be a much smarter model than to render either entirely locally or entirely in the cloud.

Say you've got a game like Halo 5 running on Durango. If you're playing offline or your internet goes down you play the game in local mode which runs entirely off your Durango box. However if you've got a live internet connection instead the game offloads some of the computation work onto the Xbox Live servers. The question I have is this a viable model in terms of both development work required to implement as well as practical considerations given the number of computers? It seems more practical to do some of the rendering on the cloud than doing all of it and it could be easier to load balance because if you could scale the workload so that if the load gets heavy the cloud component would do less work for each client.

So what parts of the workload could be done on the cloud?

I was thinking:

1. Lighting. I figure that lighting could be done offline as well as online because it seems computationally intensive but not data intensive. It could be scaled between say having a fixed lightmap baked in or completely dynamic lights.

2. AI. I figure this is another interesting one as again this is computationally intensive and yet it can scale between being done locally with say dumb AI and being done on the cloud with much smarter AI. This is also latency insensitive as having slightly slower reacting AI wouldn't be a huge negative.

3. Voice processing. Apple has already proved that this is a viable model with Siri, Microsoft could do something similar as well.

4. Server hosting. I think this one is pretty obvious, hosting multiplayer sessions is pretty intensive computationally.

5. Environmental physics. Things like destructibility and how things collapse or deform could be done offline. Also things like soft body physics like for instance flag waving as well as hard body physics, anything which isn't directly related to player actions could be done in the cloud.

6+. Anything you guys can come up with.

I think it would be a great way to use those Live payments people make as well as a great way to offer high performance whilst turning something which was once a source of losses into a source of profit by letting people subscribe to extra performance. I think as a business case it is justifiable which leaves only technical reasons as to why it would/would not work.
 
Not sure what the point would be. To enable higher-quality rendering than what would otherwise be possible a very powerful server farm would be needed. This would be extremely expensive to build, and have a very high running cost.

Onlive and such services have pretty crappy image quality, as is required without costs completely galloping out of control. Also, latency will still be an issue especially if the internet is experiencing hiccups or you happen to live in an inconvenient location. Also, bandwidth, data caps may be an issue as well.

I'm not terribly excited by farming out realtime anything to a cloud, seems to me it's mostly a kludge solution looking for a problem rather than an improvement over rendering locally on decent hardware.
 
Something like Siri for advanced conversation systems in games could work, where the ai could draw on huge databases of information for intelegent response. Could even be self learning from using input from with 'talking' to players over time. Could be a SDK with personality types that are used as base personality with additional dataset overlays for a specific games plot and characters. Maybe one day lol!
 
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i think peter talks something like that with his project milo before it got canned. milo will "evolve" or something with the time and more gamer playing.

btw ai that can do conversation that need internet maybe will word good for japan market? THere a game called love something on nintendo DS or 3DS and its really selling and from the trailer i watched long time ago, there lots of conversation and AR something.
 
Not sure what the point would be. To enable higher-quality rendering than what would otherwise be possible a very powerful server farm would be needed. This would be extremely expensive to build, and have a very high running cost.

Onlive and such services have pretty crappy image quality, as is required without costs completely galloping out of control. Also, latency will still be an issue especially if the internet is experiencing hiccups or you happen to live in an inconvenient location. Also, bandwidth, data caps may be an issue as well.

I'm not terribly excited by farming out realtime anything to a cloud, seems to me it's mostly a kludge solution looking for a problem rather than an improvement over rendering locally on decent hardware.

This is supposed to have fewer of the downsides of Onlive such as latency because the information sent wouldn't be latency intolerant. and the total quantity of information sent would be less, say ~500MB of data over a few hours of gameplay rather than gigabytes. It is also fault tolerant because you can 'fall back' to your offline version if your internet gets taken down or has a slowdown.
 
Onlive send you a highly compressed video. You are proposing of sending a raw data feed, that would require a shitload of band width!
And latency is also an issue. At best, they could do postprocessing.
 
Onlive send you a highly compressed video. You are proposing of sending a raw data feed, that would require a shitload of band width!
And latency is also an issue. At best, they could do postprocessing.

Well how different would it be to say an internet server updating a client in a multiplayer game? Can anyone give me specific data quantities or types of additions which could work?
 
This is supposed to have fewer of the downsides of Onlive such as latency because the information sent wouldn't be latency intolerant.
Not sure how physics, AI or even realtime lighting could ever not be latency intolerant... Seems to me these things would all run better locally from a latency standpoint, and if there's in fact a local fallback option in case the internet hiccups then your local system would by definition have to be capable of handling the game anyway so why even have the cloud messing things up in the first place?

Hoping for a cloud to offer higher performance is probably going to be hoping for too much IMO. A heavy-lifting capable cloud is going to cost tens, if not hundreds of millions of $ in capital to build just to cover one small corner of the globe, and then you need further expenditures to run it.

If the thought is to offer decent-ish quality rendering on a pathetic-specced device (like say, a tablet), then there's already onlive and similar services that do this.
 
Certainly world lighting/shadows seems a match, although I'm not sure how well it would work.

And what about 'pre-compiling':

- a player adds building A to mesh B. Render it locally 'as-is', whilst the "cloud" creates a new mesh B (which contains building A) and returns the faster scene to the client.

- a character and their armour create a complex rendering chain. What if the "cloud" could compile the character+armour into a single object for simpler animation for the client?

I assume other parts of the rendering process could also be 'helped' - for physics, what if the cloud were able to tell the client that "object X", given it's current state, can't collide with anything, so skip that calculation for N seconds?

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For the wii-U specifically, I do wonder if the rendering technology for sending a screen to the tablet, is also capable of sending a screen to the Wii-U itself. That would be an interesting quirk.
 
I don't know how much can be useful, but I'm sure tomorrow we will read a new rumor about a dedicated block in Durango for high speed communications with a remote server that renders special effects and perform ai :p
 
I don't know how much can be useful, but I'm sure tomorrow we will read a new rumor about a dedicated block in Durango for high speed communications with a remote server that renders special effects and perform ai :p

Its funny revisiting old comments some times :LOL:
 
Its funny revisiting old comments some times :LOL:

What if you just run almost everything locally but update back to the cloud your unused cycles after the client and recieved a request from the network?

You would have to slow the game down to 16fps(has to be fluid... no hiccups) and have direct connection to the server(like a dedicated coax cable terminal,microwave wireless carrier, or phone line DSL DSLAM).

Its pretty much a cable connection,wimax,cellular or dsl connection that directly connects to the network without going through a lot of server hops.

License a phone,cellular wireless band, or cable line to be used as a local interconnect to the local cloud server.

I like the idea of a low power Arm64+radeon DX11+ SoC as an AFFORDABLE settop box client to a cloud server.

The cloud can just hold all the games,mods,patches,demos,music etc. The client just downloads just enough to run the game and no more.
Instead of loading off a media you load off a cloud.

Still think the latency is too high to be of use with cloud rendering and client-to-cloud computing.
 
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